[Edit, site moved]
A project that intends to work towards the goals described below has been started recently (Jan 2009). Go to http://my-trac.assembla.com/libre for plenty more info. Or join #libre in the lobby, you might find somebody knocking about there.
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Executive summary:
A number of free/open source games for Spring Engine are available (e.g. KernelPanic, Nanoblobs).
However none that fulfills all goals I wish for: libre, close to convention, free of potential IP conflicts.
I'm not willing to invest amount of time necessary to put together game alone; however I'd like to know if anybody else is interested in same idea.
If yes, possible step one: put together list of currently available freely licenced content (would be useful in general).
NOTICE: I am generally only interested in responses of people who are interested in (one of) the idea(s), or are potentially interested but wish more clarification. I realise Licencing is a hot issue here, but please refrain from posting on it in this thread.
Okay, I wouldn't normally write up a truncated version like that, but I'm afraid I have a tendency to write somewhat lengthly messages on topics I'm interested in.
First off, I need and want to say that I realize there are already a number of libre games out there, I noted KP and NB above, but of course there are more (KDRs "mini"games certainly deserve a mention). But in my point of view one of their strengths, their innovative gameplay, is equally a hindrance to them being picked up easily. So what I would like to see is a game that is more conventional (but does make use of what I think makes Spring stand out: the powerful User Interface).
All of the [edit: currently released] games that (possibly) fulfill these two criteria (that I am aware of anyway) have an additional problem I would like to steer clear of: Intellectual Property rights issues.
Now I've been playing Spring on and of for some time, and have never really put much constructive time into the engine or content. And to be honest, that isn't going to change by orders of magnitude, so if I'm alone with this idea then its not going to happen (not by me anyway). What I'm interested in knowing is if anybody else thinks a game along these rough guidelines would be something (and more importantly is willing to invest time to make it happen).
If you think my notion is all too vague, be sure that (like everyone else out there I guess :D ) I have some quite concrete ideas in my head on what would make a cool game, but for me these are secondary to the principles I laid out above.
One possible first step towards realization could be putting together a list of all the currently available free/open source resources for the Spring Engine. This is something I might go ahead with in any case.
I'm happy to expand on any of my notions or points I made, but as I stated earlier, I don't want to rehash any licence wars or such - if you think my idea is no good, please either just keep that to yourself, or start a new thread (titled eg.: SeanHeron starts new Flamewar on licencing). If you PM me, I'll be happy to start that alternate thread myself :D .
Notwithstanding above notice, of course I'd be happy if people point out to me if I've missed a mod/game of the sort I'm looking for, or made an incorrect statement above.
Regards
Sean
Any Lurkers interested in a "conventional" Libre Game ?
Moderator: Moderators
Any Lurkers interested in a "conventional" Libre Game ?
Last edited by SeanHeron on 22 Jan 2009, 13:32, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Libre Game
So that the title gives the right impression you should get the word traditional in there. Maybe "Libre Traditional RTS"
Re: Libre Game
*sighs* we all have ideas we want done, you don't see any of them done yet.
As a content dev I get offended about all the condescension, while mostly inadvertent that the IP base projects like mine get. They often get it while someone else is asking for people to make their idea happen.
Many of us have ideas we want to do that are ip independent projects as well. However, we are not dropping our primary projects for them. The community is starved for talent and we need all the help we can get and rather than join a project and help out you just want us to make your idea. So you want all the power and none of the work.
As a content dev I get offended about all the condescension, while mostly inadvertent that the IP base projects like mine get. They often get it while someone else is asking for people to make their idea happen.
Many of us have ideas we want to do that are ip independent projects as well. However, we are not dropping our primary projects for them. The community is starved for talent and we need all the help we can get and rather than join a project and help out you just want us to make your idea. So you want all the power and none of the work.
Re: Libre Game
Contribute to Complete Annihilation - it has a goal of being a Libre project, doesn't it? You could probably even whittle CA into a "libre" subset without too much trouble.
While it isn't totally conventional, it is vaguely close enough to TA gameplay to be satisfactorily familiar to RTS players acquanted with TA-style games.
also, I think KP wins if you want a low barrier to entry - it is a easy to pick up as it gets.
While it isn't totally conventional, it is vaguely close enough to TA gameplay to be satisfactorily familiar to RTS players acquanted with TA-style games.
also, I think KP wins if you want a low barrier to entry - it is a easy to pick up as it gets.
Re: Libre Game
I could say a lot of stuff that would seem, well, mean. I don't want to do that, you seem like a nice guy and all. But... eh... lemme put it to you frankly:
If you just want to make a free game, that's legal to distribute, use the MechCommander II art assets, which I brought up (and thankfully, PL was already digging on) because I thought they looked like a dead-easy and 100% legal thing to do a RTS with. If the EULA didn't make it impossible to re-release 'em under GPL or PD, I'd put them into World Builder, no question- those buildings will look great, with reflection maps and glowmaps. A few might need reskinning someday, but who cares?
Pressureline, bless his heart, is actually spending his free time making them game-ready, including the mechs. All they will then need is some basic scripting and some pew-pew noises and CEGs, and there ya go- a free RTS with very traditional appeal.
Will it be P.U.R.E., or SW:IW, or S'44, or CA, or Gundam, or even BA? No. Will it have the occasional genius of KDR's whacky toys? No. But it will work, people will play it because it'll have MechWarrior stuff... and it will be legal to distribute. How can you possibly turn that down?
But no. You're turning up your nose at that, and at NanoBlobs, and at KDR's collection of stuff (most of which, btw, is pretty close to totally game-ready, although some things may need unwrapped and skinned).
All of that stuff, together, could make really neat games, frankly, in the hands of somebody competent- traditional RTS games with interest and flair.
Quit seeing the content as it is delivered, also. I honestly thought about doing more demos of the NanoBlobs stuff, reskinned for a more traditional look, but I've been a wee bit busy lately- I think that you'd be really surprised how good some of those models could look. People tend to forget that I was being deliberately contrary when I built it, but meh, it's all there, make it look cool.
KDR's materials, which you need to review in more detail, has little soldiers and stuff, skinned even. Ok, so they're girl soldiers... that's a bad thing? Tell me that mixing guns and boobies isn't a cool idea
And all of it's, well, libre, in the basic sense, and in the legal sense. You're not likely to get better stuff, man- this is the only place I have ever worked in, where people give this much stuff out and deliberately put it into Public Domain. So, get over whatever issues you have, see the content for what it is, and do some work. You aren't going to get any sympathy from most of us until you do the same nasty crap we deal with, week after week, month after month.
Or, yeah, do what Pxtl said, and just contribute to CA. They want what you want, they're just doing it a different way.
If you just want to make a free game, that's legal to distribute, use the MechCommander II art assets, which I brought up (and thankfully, PL was already digging on) because I thought they looked like a dead-easy and 100% legal thing to do a RTS with. If the EULA didn't make it impossible to re-release 'em under GPL or PD, I'd put them into World Builder, no question- those buildings will look great, with reflection maps and glowmaps. A few might need reskinning someday, but who cares?
Pressureline, bless his heart, is actually spending his free time making them game-ready, including the mechs. All they will then need is some basic scripting and some pew-pew noises and CEGs, and there ya go- a free RTS with very traditional appeal.
Will it be P.U.R.E., or SW:IW, or S'44, or CA, or Gundam, or even BA? No. Will it have the occasional genius of KDR's whacky toys? No. But it will work, people will play it because it'll have MechWarrior stuff... and it will be legal to distribute. How can you possibly turn that down?
But no. You're turning up your nose at that, and at NanoBlobs, and at KDR's collection of stuff (most of which, btw, is pretty close to totally game-ready, although some things may need unwrapped and skinned).
All of that stuff, together, could make really neat games, frankly, in the hands of somebody competent- traditional RTS games with interest and flair.
Quit seeing the content as it is delivered, also. I honestly thought about doing more demos of the NanoBlobs stuff, reskinned for a more traditional look, but I've been a wee bit busy lately- I think that you'd be really surprised how good some of those models could look. People tend to forget that I was being deliberately contrary when I built it, but meh, it's all there, make it look cool.
KDR's materials, which you need to review in more detail, has little soldiers and stuff, skinned even. Ok, so they're girl soldiers... that's a bad thing? Tell me that mixing guns and boobies isn't a cool idea
And all of it's, well, libre, in the basic sense, and in the legal sense. You're not likely to get better stuff, man- this is the only place I have ever worked in, where people give this much stuff out and deliberately put it into Public Domain. So, get over whatever issues you have, see the content for what it is, and do some work. You aren't going to get any sympathy from most of us until you do the same nasty crap we deal with, week after week, month after month.
Or, yeah, do what Pxtl said, and just contribute to CA. They want what you want, they're just doing it a different way.
Re: Libre Game
What is it that you call conventional?
Re: Libre Game
get an edumacation, get a job, get a girl, get married make babies, maybe raise them, die knowing I bred and maed babies in my backwater shack...
Re: Libre Game
Either a clone of StarCraft or a clone of C&C, I imagine.zwzsg wrote:What is it that you call conventional?
Re: Libre Game
so my answer fails 
ok...
A SANDWICH!
Do I win
ok...
A SANDWICH!
Do I win
Re: Libre Game
I was not planning to answer at this late hour, but seeing that I've obviously not made myself clear, I'll try to clarify where I think I was misunderstood (Oh, and thank you all for your replies):
- rather than want the currently active mod makers to jump aboard "my" project, I was wondering if there are other people lurking around here that might be interested in putting together something in the same line of thought that I have (and I'm not necessarily saying I'd be project lead either)
- Maybe I understated my willingness to contribute to this effort: I would be happy to put some work into it, I just don't see me doing this alone (though I guess you might be right and doing and seeing if people join along the way might be more appropriate than asking for help and having nothing to show)
- When saying that Nanoblobs and Kernel Panic do not, as they are, fit my expectations, I certainly did not mean that they are useless. On the contrary! My suggestion for a possible "step one" (which I now plan on starting Sunday), was to gather info on what is out there right now under libre licences for the very purpose of putting it to use. I guess I am at fault for not having said a big thank you first, you are right, and I want to apologize: The amount of stuff already available in the Public Domain and under free/open source licences is quite impressive, and I've been taking it for granted.For sure, if there wasn't already so much out there, I wouldn't even be considering trying to put a game together. So a late thank you to all the people here (and the mappers, etc.) for releasing your private work under liberal terms of reuse!
-Conventional. I meant that in a relatively broad sense, I don't have a specific game model in mind already, its more a matter of not too far away from what's out there already. In that sense I was reading on the FF revival thread beforehand and wondering if I should not ask some questions there. Even if the resource model were THIS style, that wouldn't be miles from eg , Startrek Armada/Homeworld, and thus "conventional" in the sense that I meant (thus P.U.R.E. and E+E are also "conventional" in the way that I meant it).
Your questions and comments have made me realise though that what I was trying to get to is not described well by the term "conventional". What I guess I had in mind are really two things: I think the game needs to be easy to get into. Which means easy to learn to play, but also having a fun way of learning to play, which for me is best done via missions with a storyline. And I think that would be very hard to do in an enthralling way with Kernel Panic.
[Edit, reworked last paragraph; added next paragraph].
Erm, I guess I'm contradicting myself somewhat saying in my first post that KDR's "mini"games are too different, but saying here that a THIS similiar FF would still be roughly what I meant with conventional. I guess THIS (and the hypothetical reworked FF) are somewhat borderline cases. Perhaps I'm just not imaginative enough regarding what missions would look like that give players the feeling they are personally involved.
Also I actually haven't looked into all of KDR's works, unfortunately that is correct (one with soldiers does not ring a bell for me [I only know of KP, THIS and Fibre], could you tell me it's name ?).
[final edit] I realise I might not have answered all points brought up (CA comes to mind). I'll be doing that tomorrow.
- rather than want the currently active mod makers to jump aboard "my" project, I was wondering if there are other people lurking around here that might be interested in putting together something in the same line of thought that I have (and I'm not necessarily saying I'd be project lead either)
- Maybe I understated my willingness to contribute to this effort: I would be happy to put some work into it, I just don't see me doing this alone (though I guess you might be right and doing and seeing if people join along the way might be more appropriate than asking for help and having nothing to show)
- When saying that Nanoblobs and Kernel Panic do not, as they are, fit my expectations, I certainly did not mean that they are useless. On the contrary! My suggestion for a possible "step one" (which I now plan on starting Sunday), was to gather info on what is out there right now under libre licences for the very purpose of putting it to use. I guess I am at fault for not having said a big thank you first, you are right, and I want to apologize: The amount of stuff already available in the Public Domain and under free/open source licences is quite impressive, and I've been taking it for granted.For sure, if there wasn't already so much out there, I wouldn't even be considering trying to put a game together. So a late thank you to all the people here (and the mappers, etc.) for releasing your private work under liberal terms of reuse!
-Conventional. I meant that in a relatively broad sense, I don't have a specific game model in mind already, its more a matter of not too far away from what's out there already. In that sense I was reading on the FF revival thread beforehand and wondering if I should not ask some questions there. Even if the resource model were THIS style, that wouldn't be miles from eg , Startrek Armada/Homeworld, and thus "conventional" in the sense that I meant (thus P.U.R.E. and E+E are also "conventional" in the way that I meant it).
Your questions and comments have made me realise though that what I was trying to get to is not described well by the term "conventional". What I guess I had in mind are really two things: I think the game needs to be easy to get into. Which means easy to learn to play, but also having a fun way of learning to play, which for me is best done via missions with a storyline. And I think that would be very hard to do in an enthralling way with Kernel Panic.
[Edit, reworked last paragraph; added next paragraph].
Erm, I guess I'm contradicting myself somewhat saying in my first post that KDR's "mini"games are too different, but saying here that a THIS similiar FF would still be roughly what I meant with conventional. I guess THIS (and the hypothetical reworked FF) are somewhat borderline cases. Perhaps I'm just not imaginative enough regarding what missions would look like that give players the feeling they are personally involved.
Also I actually haven't looked into all of KDR's works, unfortunately that is correct (one with soldiers does not ring a bell for me [I only know of KP, THIS and Fibre], could you tell me it's name ?).
[final edit] I realise I might not have answered all points brought up (CA comes to mind). I'll be doing that tomorrow.
Re: Libre Game
so, no sandwich fine. fuck, I will make my own!
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Pressure Line
- Posts: 2283
- Joined: 21 May 2007, 02:09
Re: Libre Game
well i was only really planning on publicly releasing the buildings x: since im working on something BT related for myself (although im only using 1 or 2 of the unit models from MC2, because they aren't of the particular units i'm after, but whatever)Argh wrote:Pressureline, bless his heart, is actually spending his free time making them game-ready, including the mechs. All they will then need is some basic scripting and some pew-pew noises and CEGs, and there ya go- a free RTS with very traditional appeal.
Will it be P.U.R.E., or SW:IW, or S'44, or CA, or Gundam, or even BA? No. Will it have the occasional genius of KDR's whacky toys? No. But it will work, people will play it because it'll have MechWarrior stuff... and it will be legal to distribute. How can you possibly turn that down?
bobthedino has a BT mod in the works, but i have absolutely no idea about the level completeness he is at.
tbh sean, ive said it before, whack out some simple models, and get some gameplay setup (you may as well learn how to do the text-based side of spring modding, or you should just flag the whole idea
) and im talking supersimple models, as in if you spend more than an hour making it, its taking too long. remember OTA+CC had over 150 unique units, if you are trying to recreate that without ip even at an hour per unit thats 150+ hours *just* for the models, then hundreds of hours playtesting (although if you just copy the stats from a *A game thats not an issue) and bughunting etc.Aint noone gonna do it for you for free. That being said, if you get all the backend running smoothly with 40 poly models, someone may decided to gift things for you (or you could learn yourself *gasp*)
the main point of the post being "Put up or shut up. If you really want it, do it yourself."
**alternatively you can use the art assets i made 18 months ago, which are now PD
Re: Libre Game
Don't let the name fool you - CA is the project you're probably looking for. A large list of developers, a focus on new content, and the game has gradually divorced itself from TA gameplay.
Even if you don't like the gameplay direction of CA, you could probably put together a solid RTS with a theme and storyline based on selecting some of the libre content available in Complete Annihilation.
Even if you don't like the gameplay direction of CA, you could probably put together a solid RTS with a theme and storyline based on selecting some of the libre content available in Complete Annihilation.
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Pressure Line
- Posts: 2283
- Joined: 21 May 2007, 02:09
Re: Libre Game
just remember that the TA unit remakes are NOT really IP free. they are derivative works, so there is a large chunk of CA's 'new' content that isnt new at all, its just sexified TA content. (srsly, not trying to bag CA, or MrD/Cremuss, ya'll are doing a good job, but you still have a long way to go.)Pxtl wrote:Even if you don't like the gameplay direction of CA, you could probably put together a solid RTS with a theme and storyline based on selecting some of the libre content available in Complete Annihilation.
Re: Libre Game
I was referring to the Arm stuff, which is largely original, not the Core stuff, which is largely OTA-based. And even there, plenty of the remodels are remodels of 3rd-party units... although theoretically whoever made the original Garpike could come a-callin'.
Re: Libre Game
Thanks for the heads up on CA, I didn't realise they want to dump TA's Visual Style as well. I'll be looking into it some more!
The other thing I think I haven't adressed is my insistance on free/open source licences in contrast with freeware; and the aversion to IP conflicts. I must admit, the licencing definitely has to do with ideology as well - but the reasoning is that I think having a full game package that could be included in a Linux distribution could give the Spring Engine a boost (writing that it just occured to me that Ubuntu has the "multiverse" repository which includes non libre packages... I'll have to look into that as well).
The other thing I think I haven't adressed is my insistance on free/open source licences in contrast with freeware; and the aversion to IP conflicts. I must admit, the licencing definitely has to do with ideology as well - but the reasoning is that I think having a full game package that could be included in a Linux distribution could give the Spring Engine a boost (writing that it just occured to me that Ubuntu has the "multiverse" repository which includes non libre packages... I'll have to look into that as well).
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
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Re: Any Lurkers interested in a "conventional" Libre Game ?
Basically, we need EE, but libre.
For the record, I'm on board, I'll work design, models, concept art, and if I really really have to even texturing and scripting.
This is the kind of project spring needs, simply put.
For the record, I'm on board, I'll work design, models, concept art, and if I really really have to even texturing and scripting.
This is the kind of project spring needs, simply put.
Re: Any Lurkers interested in a "conventional" Libre Game ?
Yep. While I really can't blame Fang for not doing it - it's his art after all - I wish he'd just open EE. His many hiatuses (haiti?) are a damned shame (again, can't blame him for it) - there was a time when I was convinced that EE was going to take over as the main mod. It's just sad, is all.