New User Impressions and Suggestions

[Forboding Angel]

I just happened to think... Ya know, if PURE were picked up by a game company... Hell, at least 70% of the work if not a lot more is already done. At that point you have a base to expand upon that is solid. You would think that in terms of investment, it would be pretty much a no brainer.

That said, I'm not claiming to know anything of how the background of this stuff works, jsut that it makes sense to me. You've already proven what quality you and your team can produce.

[Argh]

Don't get too excited. You just know I'm about to get flamed all over the place over saying that anyhow, even though it's completely theoretical unless he's for real, knows venture capitalists who'd respond positively, etc.

[nxain]

Ok... lemme take another whack at this, then. Do something that a Producer would do- bring us into contact with some money, so that people like me aren't struggling to keep food on the table while we finish our games.

I agree. That's actually the reason I think there needs to be a Spring Foundation (to fund promising projects and maybe even find publishers for them). The community overall needs to understand that the individual projects are problematic for commercial investment due to the IP and open source problems. You're not going to see anyone selling games wanting to give you money (at least not much) - Spring is currently a legal nightmare from an investment POV. I do, however, think that there are many other alternative sources of funding for Spring as technology that adds value to other bits of technology (Linux... Spring is very valuable as a driver for linux) or offers a low cost (free) solution to non-game problems (hence, researchers and universities).

On an individual level, Spring is highly valuable to those of you who want a career in games or simulation.

- nXain

[Argh]

We've been over the legal issues, in details you would not believe.

Basically, it's just fine to make and sell games with Spring, so long as you own the content, because the engine and the games aren't one entity. If you're serious about that, there are a number of threads where we've explored that, to itty-bitty pieces. There is some argument about the legal status of the code used, but if it reverted to GPL, it still doesn't matter, you can still sell the whole thing and that's perfectly legal.

But I can't see how a foundation could possibly work out, since who would donate if they didn't expect a return, and the engine is, like any engine, a rotting commodity the minute that development doesn't stay red-hot. Sounds like a non-starter to me. That, and whatever work started on that would be too late for me to give a damn.

[Forboding Angel]

Spring is currently a legal nightmare from an investment POV.

While argh and the community at large addressed this, yes, this si an accurate statement imo.

[nxain]

We've been over the legal issues, in details you would not believe...

...If you're serious about that, there are a number of threads where we've explored that, to itty-bitty pieces.

But I can't see how a foundation could possibly work out, since who would donate if they didn't expect a return....

Can you point me to some places to start with collecting info on legal issues that have been discussed?

A foundation isn't supposed to make money (they're usually non-profit). They're supposed to spend money in order to contribute to an agenda. Also, the Spring technology is solid - it's not a rotting commodity unless it has to compete with AAA games, which it doesn't. Open Source is showing signs of being able to compete across consumer apps (it's not there yet, but it's in the ball game). Spring is part of that general trend and shows a huge amount of promise. There is grant money in technology and education funds that are looking for projects like Spring. Some of them have very serious money to award. It is a pain in the ass to go through the hoops to get funding (writing proposals, etc.). And you're right, it's takes a long time to see payoff. That's where academic connections come in handy - they are pros at getting other people to fund pet projects.

- nXain

[Forboding Angel]

This was the latest, there are many more, but this is probably the msot relevant.

http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... 14&t=15661

[Crayfish]

Do you know of any funding bodies to whom Spring might be well positioned to submit an application, nxain?

[Saktoth]

I'd think individual mods or developers would apply for funding, rather than spring itself, though i suppose both are possible. Though i dont know anything about any of this, i dont think any of us do...

[Forboding Angel]

THing is, I'm not real sure what I would do with money, unless it was used to pay people here to help me or soemthing. Like lurker for example. Throw some cash at him and get him to fix those darn .77 lua errors

I'm kinda kidding here, but in a way I'm not... Honestly other than being able to pay people to help us, what good would money be? Or is that the entire point?

[Neddie]

I did look into investment options, but nobody who had a solid case upon which they could seek funding looked like they needed or could use it. I mean, it just didn't seem relevant at that point.

Spring has atrocious marketing because we had but one person with no budget, no formal training and very limited time seriously pursuing it. Namely me. I did research on target audiences, experimented with methods, attempted to see where our limited social capital could take us, etcetera. I did this with precious little help or support from anybody but Smoth, Nemo and AF. In fact, my work was met with considerable disdain and disrespect because it produced nothing tangible. The groundwork is grueling and necessary, but it seems that most people only value the end results - the theory, the research mean nothing because you don't see it. My groundwork is there, potentially I can complete it in some cases and use it to direct the final production which will yield results. However, people refused to work with me and undermined what I tried to do for over a year. I am taking a well-deserved rest from thankless efforts, if you wish. I'm rather grumpy on this point, particularly because even now people ignore what I have done. If they are not valued, the people with necessary skills or even those willing to learn them will not keep working.

Investment and marketing should be focused on single games on the engine. I came to this conclusion some time ago. Funding makes marketing and distribution much easier, but aside from that, the purpose is to compensate developers for their time and effort.

I have established minimal legal and developmental criteria for the advertisement and marketing of games and projects on the engine, but have not formalized and published this criteria due to a lack of interest. I am willing to do so in due time if there is sustained interest among other parties to advertise and market. In that case I would also, as always, be willing to help with the efforts for any compliant projects.

The criteria are simple, however, so I'll sum them up here...
Projects that utilize intellectual property which is not legally theirs to use cannot pursue funding, but they may be able to pursue marketing if they qualify as a fan project or are committed to removing the intellectual property which limits their legality. Only projects which are functionally complete can be marketed as released games. Only projects which are in beta and playable can be marketed as projects.

A. The projects which meet the legal and developmental criteria for marketing as released games are Fibre, P.U.R.E. and Kernel Panic.
B. The projects which meet the criteria for marketing and the pursuit of funding as projects are E&E, Evolution RTS and Spring: 1944.
C. The projects that meet the criteria for marketing but not that of funding pursuit are Gundam RTS, Complete Annihilation and Star Wars: Imperial Winter.

The above projects are all worthy and could with reasonable legality pursue at least marketing. Complete Annihilation, upon the removal of all foreign intellectual property, should be able to pursue funding. Without ratified legal approval by those who hold the rights to the content Gundam RTS and Star Wars: Imperial Winter depend upon these projects cannot practically seek investors.

Spring is not a legal nightmare despite what one might suppose. Licensed under GPL v2, Spring can interface with content under any license which does not attempt to exert itself upon Spring or relicense components of the engine itself. Projects which are not GPL v2 compatible cannot be distributed in the same install as the engine, but they can be distributed for use with the engine. There is no danger of legal status conflict as long as they are not the same entity; Spring is not licensed under GPL v3 and thus dynamically linked content is not subject to the license. This was the primary concern, that the engine was in some way infectious due to the implications of the GPL v3 license as interpreted by the FSF, and only GPL v3 compatible content could be distributed for use with it due to the dynamic linking clause. We are using GPL v2, which does not have such requirements.

[Neddie]

TL;DR

I did look into investment options and have done a lot of the necessary marketing groundwork. I am currently resting, but am willing to contribute if others are committed as well.

We can market and seek funding for games and projects which meet some basic guidelines. Fibre, P.U.R.E. and Kernel Panic are released games we can market. E&E, Evolution RTS and Spring: 1944 are projects can be marketed and can seek funding. We can market these projects; Gundam RTS, Complete Annihilation and Star Wars: Imperial Winter, but they can't be funded.

Spring is GPL v2, so games don't need to be GPL v2 to run on the engine. The dynamic linking problem is a GPL v3 clause.

[El Capitano]

It would be nice if funding could be found for an artist to finish off the replacement models, since then the biggest bugbear of Spring would finally be lifted, unless the names of units are an issue (are they?).

[daan 79]

I havent been to active to talk abouts other ppls timeinvestment but this is what i think about the matter.

Ppl started contributing to this project and adding there own private time in it. LIKE PLAYING A GAME. If you think these ppl want to get payd you probelly talking about other ppl. But when all ppl worked on it and the project grows maybe its time for soem rethinking of what activities will change for spring community. This is where the pages long treads about licences come in.

Money should be used to get maketinginstruments like adds or marchandise go out of the community. Some ppl here made in the beginning very cool things. It would be only normal to promote spring with a very common and shared voice, if only out of respect for the ppl that really made this happen. They gave the spring engine life to a group of ppl. Let we also have a bit of an selection by GOOD promotion of who we wanna adress to.

But i have been playing here some time now and yes i do by heart support this community to keep rocking.

[Crayfish]

Names almost certainly are important. Arguing in court that a remodel is sufficiently different from prior art to be considered novel IP would be a lot easier if it wasn't called a peewee.

[Crayfish]

I'm still not exactly sure where you would seek funding from. Are there research or arts councils interested in game development? Or are you actually talking about commercialisation involving venture capitalists?

I can't really imagine any Spring project needing enough money to involve serious investors... a bank loan would probably be sufficient, considering most of the development is already done.

[daan 79]

Well i got some pretty cool ideas to give this form. I am also willing to step up and act as one of the ppl that would form a group and make a plan to organise actions. These plans i have consist nothing more than using the stuff we not valuating right. I will make a post about things we are not using proper, i think should be used to benefit the dephelopers. This idea of mine will also be a contribution in the players eyes.

Well ofcourse i not totally new with all what has happend here and what will happen in the furure. But if you guys let me work on this front a bit i must say i might need soem helps on soem sides. But the main part of the deal is here that we are ignorent to see that we have certain goals that hould funtion as mile stones. Ther should be a tricker for a project that becomes finisched besides of the fact thats it a complete project.

[nxain]

Here's my current POV about investment into Spring (and Spring based projects...). This is part A, focused on the issues with selling a Spring based game.

-- I don't think that anyone expecting to make money would invest money via a game into a Spring project. It would be a very high-risk investment with little chance of seeing a return.

-- Spring based projects are a nightmare for an investor attempting to make money on product (even if it doesn't seem like it). The problem isn't about GP2 or 3 or whatever. It's about the potential for lawsuits and the legal fees needed up front because of the double whammy of open source and mods. Why would a publisher pay $50K on legal fees to make sure they aren't going to get sued when they are only going to invest $75K to start with? (I'm making these numbers up, but I believe they are realistic).

-- When you start talking serious money ($200K +), it's cheaper just to build a new RTS engine and own it (and it adds value to the company regardless of the game!). Most publishers want a long term relationship with a studio with good technology, not a 1 off game that may or may not sell. They will certainly demand to own the IP and all content. On top of that, this price range doesn't even show up on radar for most decent publishers (console games usually range from 5 -30 million dollars now).

-- A Spring project could eventually get to a publishable state, but the dev team would need to form a company, see a lawyer and document extraordinarily well that their Spring branch is clean. After that, the game produced would have to have very high potential and be nearly finished for a publisher to a take a risk.

-- So, how might making money selling actual games work?

A) Create a team that branches Spring and create an Xbox live downloadable game (this is realistic, but would be a big step by any of the existing teams) I'm thinking 10 devs for 1 year with strong leadership. This would be a real studio, even if it's employees are part time.

B) Create a solid game and introduce ads into the game (this is not easy and not all the popular) - It only has a chance if the game is kick-ass

C) Create a solid, addictive game and sell downloadable content. This doesn't have to be corporate evil - See Blender, they sell DVDs and books and etc with the money going directly back into Blender! It's practically a donation system.

D) Create a solid, clean game that can be used to make OEM deals (the stuff that comes with graphic cards, new computers and etc.) Even if Dell gave the Spring foundation pennies for each copy shipped on a new PC, it would certainly be a nice bonus for devs working on their masterpieces

I'll follow up with ways to bring in funds that don't rely on actually selling games (which I believe is way more realistic, but I thought it was important to start with the stuff you're probably familiar with).

- nXain

[nxain]

Appendum for Part A

Two places that might work for selling Spring based games is the iPhone Shop and Android Shop. Of course, I suppose the big question is if anyone has tried to get Spring working on a mobile platform and designing a game specifically for those platforms.

Mmmm... now that I'm thinking about it, I suppose digital distribution websites could work, such as GameTap. Still, that gets into the same problems as the publisher, but it would probably be much less risky. I don't think any of those sites/companies would invest money, but they may be open to adding a Spring based game to their download library. Steam is pretty hardcore, but it's a possibility if the project was very good (it would have to be a very polished, standalone project).

- nXain

[Peet]

Two places that might work for selling Spring based games is the iPhone Shop and Android Shop. Of course, I suppose the big question is if anyone has tried to get Spring working on a mobile platform and designing a game specifically for those platforms.

This paragraph is pretty revealing as to exactly how much you know specifically about Spring. No offense, but I think you really are underqualified to be making these suggestions and expecting serious and respectful responses.