I'm sure of that yeah. However in practice it seems a whole group of people talk about something and they all want something completely different (or not completely different but they get stuck on minor details) so nothing get really done until someone just stops talking and does what he considers good enough.Forboding Angel wrote:I'm willing to bet that if you and I were to sit down and talk about it, very little of our "goals" would clash.Tobi wrote:Well I think there are actually many people who want to change for the better but usually everyone wants to change to some other better.
New User Impressions and Suggestions
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Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
So do that. It'd be a start.
Nxain makes some good points. I don't agree with them all, but they're nice to hear. Why the rage is appearing I don't know as he's been utterly civil.
One thing I do agree with is that Spring has great potential. Not only that, but a number of the developers (engine and content) are capable, even talented people who put a lot of time and effort into what they do.
It'd be nice to see what could be done if a number of these people decided to sit down and do something together.
However, there's no way to force this. No one's being paid, there's nothing at stake except for people's own interests, and Spring is culturally pretty ramshackle, with a lot of volatile personalities in the established community.
The most coherent project that I know of being developed by a significant number of people is CA. Not altogether original, but even if it retains aspects of TA game mechanics I can see it eventually being a truly great game. Hopefully as it gathers steam and moves further away from TA IP more developers might be attracted to it and it could snowball.
This kind of natural progression is the only way that I can foresee Spring ever getting a 'flagship project'.
Nxain makes some good points. I don't agree with them all, but they're nice to hear. Why the rage is appearing I don't know as he's been utterly civil.
One thing I do agree with is that Spring has great potential. Not only that, but a number of the developers (engine and content) are capable, even talented people who put a lot of time and effort into what they do.
It'd be nice to see what could be done if a number of these people decided to sit down and do something together.
However, there's no way to force this. No one's being paid, there's nothing at stake except for people's own interests, and Spring is culturally pretty ramshackle, with a lot of volatile personalities in the established community.
The most coherent project that I know of being developed by a significant number of people is CA. Not altogether original, but even if it retains aspects of TA game mechanics I can see it eventually being a truly great game. Hopefully as it gathers steam and moves further away from TA IP more developers might be attracted to it and it could snowball.
This kind of natural progression is the only way that I can foresee Spring ever getting a 'flagship project'.
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
I've definitely come around to thinking that a flagship project is going to have to be driven by a motivated project team, rather than being pushed out by the core community. In many ways that should be easier simply because it's easier to get 10 people to agree rather than 30. The irony is that there is plenty of motivated people on this board that want to do that kind of project.Crayfish wrote:
This kind of natural progression is the only way that I can foresee Spring ever getting a 'flagship project'.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have sense of how large the various project teams are? Could 5 motivated people do something unique and impressive with Spring over about a year? 10 people?
Thanks,
nXain
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
around 5 motivated people have done PURE, so I think that's possible; I'm not sold to the idea personally, though. it just doesn't feel right.
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
I wonder what 10 people could do with PURE or just 10 extra for a couple of months. What kind of extra effort would actually be effective in getting PURE farther along?imbaczek wrote:around 5 motivated people have done PURE, so I think that's possible; I'm not sold to the idea personally, though. it just doesn't feel right.
- nXain
- Forboding Angel
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Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
Heh, if I had 5 people consistantly helping me with Evolution RTS (on a weekly basis), we would have the greatest rts known to man, or at least, close enough 
I'm being facetious but the point is clear I hope. But everyone has their own little project.
As far as PURE goes... I'm not sure how much I can help. I've done maps (which tbh is kinda boring for me compared to mod work, but meh). I don't have access to the source nor do I have the power to make executive decisions with said source. Trust is a scarce commodity around here. That said, I have offered my full resources to Argh. In fact, I haven't touched Evo in a while now because I am trying to help with pure (dunno how great of a job I am doing though, hell, it's just maps, I could do that in my sleep).

I'm being facetious but the point is clear I hope. But everyone has their own little project.
As far as PURE goes... I'm not sure how much I can help. I've done maps (which tbh is kinda boring for me compared to mod work, but meh). I don't have access to the source nor do I have the power to make executive decisions with said source. Trust is a scarce commodity around here. That said, I have offered my full resources to Argh. In fact, I haven't touched Evo in a while now because I am trying to help with pure (dunno how great of a job I am doing though, hell, it's just maps, I could do that in my sleep).
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
The core productive S44 team is four people, with contributions from about 10 total over the lifespan of the project (most contributions beyond the core team have been pretty limited though; Dash_Riprock probably has the most models ingame of any non-core member, and its a handful). We've been working on the game in its current form for just over a year now, and we're hoping to put something out in the coming few months.
Granted, S44 is an absurdly large undertaking in many ways, so it may not be the best gauge. Also, our motivation and productivity has varied hugely throughout the process (our skinner in particular varies between massive output and zero).
However, with a smaller, more tightly focused, planned design, a team of 4-6 people with the appropriate skills and drive could easily accomplish a complete and suitably complex "flagship" game on this engine in 4-6 months. All just my guesswork, of course.
Granted, S44 is an absurdly large undertaking in many ways, so it may not be the best gauge. Also, our motivation and productivity has varied hugely throughout the process (our skinner in particular varies between massive output and zero).
However, with a smaller, more tightly focused, planned design, a team of 4-6 people with the appropriate skills and drive could easily accomplish a complete and suitably complex "flagship" game on this engine in 4-6 months. All just my guesswork, of course.
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
See, every time I mention it, I upset people, I don't like doing thatimbaczek wrote:/me wants Tower D-fens NAO!smoth wrote:You talk about what is good for the spring engine, well guess what. You are not Tobi, if tobi said, "smoth i need some kind of independant mod" I would add that to my task list as priority 2 under gundam and start planning it.

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Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
nxain wrote: I don't really disagree with much of the response you guys have been giving me. I do, however, think you're missing the point. My overall point is that you have gotten tunnel vision and seem think (as a community) that having a bunch of half-baked, hard to get, nearly unplayable mods is a good thing for the Spring engine. "it's coming" is an interesting response and I'll certainly check back in the future to see what has come out of those projects.



nxain wrote: The last thing I'm going to say is this. As a community, those of you who are very active should set aside your pet projects (Smoth) for a while and spend time helping one of the larger, original IP projects get off the ground and to a very playable 1.0 or late beta state that can really show off the Spring engine. You'll find that a game that takes off will pull in many, many more people who are likely to help out on your pet projects. And, you really should put effort into the whole end-user experience, not just the part that happens when someone successfully gets a mod to launch and gets online into a decent game or gets the right A.I. to work.
- nXain






Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
Spring right now is just an "infant" (IMHO), don't expect so much now.
What I interprate from what you are saying is that Spring is a game in itself, which is false.
Spring is an engine, a program which runs on mods. You should not criticize Spring for being lower-that-commercial-quality (EXCEPT maybe fog-of-war, GUI, etc), you should criticize mods instead. A flagship mod is not a very good one, (though I would say that BA is already one,...unofficially, of course) IMHO, this would destroy Spring's uniqueness.
Nearly all commercial games would decay slowly overtime because they have limited factions (not counting mods, though). Spring could live forever if the thanks to the different mods made for Spring. Argh's P.U.R.E. could be said as a complete game (though he would not agree). The game has a whatever-you-call-it-a-start-interface?-thing-thing-thing (Applauncher), instructions in game (though it could kill you), UI and plenty of other commercial quality stuff. However, PURE's popularity could fall, unless he keeps on updating on stuff like more factions and units.
So, these (IMHO, of course) are the pros and cons of a flagship mod.
Pros:
1. No need to download anymore mods! Hooray(except updates, though).
2. Quality.
3. No more confusions.
Cons:
1. Not very "open-sourced", because people would not like the idea...that could lead to:
2. Limited concept artists, developers, etc, because of balance issues, beauty of model and compability with the mod's idea.
3. People would be bored.......
4. Too many matches with the same mod would be very very boring.
5. Impropriate maps.
I like the current Spring, with different mods to play with, and if you are bored with a current one you could switch to another mod.
BTW, it would be nice to have a whatever-you-call-it-a-start-interface?-thing-thing-thing though, to minimize confusion among new players.
A few promising mods are popping up, like PURE, Imperial Winter, S44 and etc. nXain, NONE of the "promising mods" are released currently, except PURE, though PURE is only at RC stage.
Spring is not user-friendly yet, sir.
P.S: On second thoughts, maybe I should delete this post, of fear of going off-topic...maybe not.
What I interprate from what you are saying is that Spring is a game in itself, which is false.
Spring is an engine, a program which runs on mods. You should not criticize Spring for being lower-that-commercial-quality (EXCEPT maybe fog-of-war, GUI, etc), you should criticize mods instead. A flagship mod is not a very good one, (though I would say that BA is already one,...unofficially, of course) IMHO, this would destroy Spring's uniqueness.
Nearly all commercial games would decay slowly overtime because they have limited factions (not counting mods, though). Spring could live forever if the thanks to the different mods made for Spring. Argh's P.U.R.E. could be said as a complete game (though he would not agree). The game has a whatever-you-call-it-a-start-interface?-thing-thing-thing (Applauncher), instructions in game (though it could kill you), UI and plenty of other commercial quality stuff. However, PURE's popularity could fall, unless he keeps on updating on stuff like more factions and units.
So, these (IMHO, of course) are the pros and cons of a flagship mod.
Pros:
1. No need to download anymore mods! Hooray(except updates, though).
2. Quality.
3. No more confusions.
Cons:
1. Not very "open-sourced", because people would not like the idea...that could lead to:
2. Limited concept artists, developers, etc, because of balance issues, beauty of model and compability with the mod's idea.
3. People would be bored.......
4. Too many matches with the same mod would be very very boring.
5. Impropriate maps.
I like the current Spring, with different mods to play with, and if you are bored with a current one you could switch to another mod.
BTW, it would be nice to have a whatever-you-call-it-a-start-interface?-thing-thing-thing though, to minimize confusion among new players.
A few promising mods are popping up, like PURE, Imperial Winter, S44 and etc. nXain, NONE of the "promising mods" are released currently, except PURE, though PURE is only at RC stage.
WHAT? Are you selfish? Developers contributing to a single mod? LOL this idiom should fit in this situation: too many cooks(developers) spoil the soup(spring).The last thing I'm going to say is this. As a community, those of you who are very active should set aside your pet projects (Smoth) for a while and spend time helping one of the larger, original IP projects get off the ground and to a very playable 1.0 or late beta state that can really show off the Spring engine. You'll find that a game that takes off will pull in many, many more people who are likely to help out on your pet projects. And, you really should put effort into the whole end-user experience, not just the part that happens when someone successfully gets a mod to launch and gets online into a decent game or gets the right A.I. to work.
- nXain
Spring is not user-friendly yet, sir.
P.S: On second thoughts, maybe I should delete this post, of fear of going off-topic...maybe not.
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Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
Micro Modules, I was told about by Acidd and downloaded it by joining a game. The latest TASClient does automatic map and mod downloading, so I didn't need a website link to play.nxain wrote:Is it too much to ask to provide a name and link or am I supposed to spend a few hours in the forums tracking this down?El Capitano wrote: The fact that there's a recently released mod that does just that seems to indicate you're really not looking very far.
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
I think I've made it pretty clear on this thread that I understand Spring is an engine, not a game. In case there is any doubt, I also very well understand the difference between a mod and a game. This is an area where I doubt anyone contributing to Spring has anything near my experience with game engines (technology, content pipelines and legal issues). I also understand that many engine developers make the mistake of allowing features rather than gameplay to drive development (the general rule of thumb is that the engine should be shaped by the game, not the game shaped by the engine).panzeriv2 wrote: ...
Spring is not user-friendly yet, sir.
Spring is unique because the games and mods created with it can be owned by the creator. Mods on commercial engines are generally considered to be owned by the owner of the original game IP / engine. This difference is my primary interest in Spring - that creators can make something and own it themselves. Also, Spring is a ship that can't be sunk because there is no business model that has to be achieved. Every project in development right now could fail and Spring can still act as a starting point for a small dev team (it would just be much harder). That is a very liberating situation for would-be game devs.
As far as the uniqueness of Spring goes due to all the projects in development with no flagship product, I think that belief should be highly reconsidered, especially as so many of the mods are so similar and a large proportion of them are essentially TA with new paint. What Spring really needs to be showcased and make it easier for other developers to do things is a project that solves as many problems as possible that can bring in new people and act as a reference for developers to implement good solutions.
A flagship game doesn't need to be AAA commercial quality or have a huge scope. It needs to be simple and solve each problem from beginning to end to be able to release a standalone, highly usable 1.0 release. That would directly benefit every single project based on Spring and from the feedback I got, could probably be done in 6 months for 5-7 people so long as they were focused on the right problems and pushed towards a clearly defined end state. Gameplay-wise, it needs to not feel like you're really playing a TA mod.
I'm starting to wonder if it's time for a Spring Foundation that can get sponsorship for this type of project and manage it to completion while allowing the greater community to do whatever it wants. A foundation could also take a longer term view and enable things that can be done via the community. Offhand, I think there could be quite a few parties interested in seeing Spring be successful in the long term.
- nXain
Edit:
Many people on the board seem to think that PURE is filling that role of default flagship, non-TA game. That may well be the case (it certainly seems like it to me so far). That does get a little sticky though past a 1.0 release. Nonetheless, if PURE is really the unofficial flagship game, then why not make a official community effort to get it as polished as possible and also turn it into a reference for other devs by making sure all the essential problems are being solved (which they may be - I'm not sure about that yet).
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
Maybe we/they are not experts in game engines in general, but bear in mind that most of the people currently working with spring have been doing so for at least a year or two. Specific, specialized knowledge is generally more useful within the domain of specialization than general knowledge and experience.This is an area where I doubt anyone contributing to Spring has anything near my experience with game engines (technology, content pipelines and legal issues).
That is very difficult to achieve when you're creating a game for an existing engine. I think gameplay is an emergent result of the sum of a game's features, and thus the features form the foundation of the gameplay.I also understand that many engine developers make the mistake of allowing features rather than gameplay to drive development (the general rule of thumb is that the engine should be shaped by the game, not the game shaped by the engine).
edit: As for the 'flagship game' ideas, I don't think that would work out for a variety of reasons, all based on the current structure and dynamics of the current player and content developer communities.
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
Okay, I'm interested in starting a unique project in a few months (need to learn to make some better textures) I have 1 guy helping out with concepts and maybe someone to help with lua, And I'm hoping by showing good progress to get people in, but I doubt it, simply becaus there is nobody, which is the problem with spring, there are a few teams, but that's it.
P.S. I'll probably get a few trolls now, but I don't care.
P.S. I'll probably get a few trolls now, but I don't care.
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Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
Unless you're willing to actually say who you are, stop clubbing us over the head with "I have more experience than you", because it's making you look like a pompous ass. You haven't actually said anything yet that somebody with a brain couldn't reason by themselves. Plenty of us know that Spring isn't user friendly, plenty of us know that many people working towards one goal will get there faster than many people working towards many different goals. We know there's IP issues, we know Spring isn't perfect, we know the mods aren't perfect.
In short, you've not told us anything we don't already know and instead you're alienating us with bullshit like "You know, I was going to try and recruit you into my super secret game company, but you're not acting professionally enough on a hobbiest's forum".
In short, you've not told us anything we don't already know and instead you're alienating us with bullshit like "You know, I was going to try and recruit you into my super secret game company, but you're not acting professionally enough on a hobbiest's forum".
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
That depends on what problem you're trying to solve. I'm not talking about optimizing the shaders or revamping the lua integration.Peet wrote:Maybe we/they are not experts in game engines in general, but bear in mind that most of the people currently working with spring have been doing so for at least a year or two. Specific, specialized knowledge is generally more useful within the domain of specialization than general knowledge and experience.
It's certainly harder to achieve and often determines the true difference between a game and a mod. You certainly have to be creative about how you use the engine you're given and where you put your resources. When I review game mods that come out of the local game development classes, the guys that simply re-skin UT characters and change up the game rules don't even make an impression, whereas when I see the UE used in novel ways to achieve interesting gameplay that you would not expect to be UE, it gets my attention (the work involved is usually about the same, but the design and creativity is where certain groups shine and others flop).That is very difficult to achieve when you're creating a game for an existing engine. I think gameplay is an emergent result of the sum of a game's features, and thus the features form the foundation of the gameplay.
This is like saying that linux will never be ready for the desktop because of the attitude of the linux community. Ubuntu showed up as the new guy with the intent to make a better user experience and blew away the other distros practically overnight. My point is that you don't need the support of the overall community (and shouldn't expect it). The community can be won over later by the results. You need a core group with a mission to go from start to finish.edit: As for the 'flagship game' ideas, I don't think that would work out for a variety of reasons, all based on the current structure and dynamics of the current player and content developer communities.
- nXain
Last edited by nxain on 01 Oct 2008, 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
If you're alienated by me, then why respond? I don't really see what you expect to gain or communicate. The sense I'm getting overall is that there is a very vocal and hostile minority that seem to be afraid of something. I'm not of what - perhaps that with attention to Spring the community will change or they will lose control. That possibility is just something that comes with success on the engine and isn't directly related to my interest in it. Even if I go away, it won't change anything other than you won't have a target to vent on.El Capitano wrote:Unless you're willing to actually say who you are, stop clubbing us over the head with "I have more experience than you", because it's making you look like a pompous ass.".
- nXain
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
Maybe it's time to go outside the core community and find some new blood. We should actually start a new thread on that issue.Hoi wrote:Okay, I'm interested in starting a unique project in a few months (need to learn to make some better textures) I have 1 guy helping out with concepts and maybe someone to help with lua, And I'm hoping by showing good progress to get people in, but I doubt it, simply becaus there is nobody, which is the problem with spring, there are a few teams, but that's it.
P.S. I'll probably get a few trolls now, but I don't care.
- nXain
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
Where do you suggest to go?
Re: New User Impressions and Suggestions
PURE is not an unofficial flagship game, it's just the first one to present itself to a wide public as a game on top of an engine and not the other way around (mod for an engine.) More will follow, they're just in closed alpha/beta stages (SWIW comes to mind).