Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING? - Page 4

Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

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tombom
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by tombom »

[TS]Lollocide wrote:Yea, giving power to everybody means those guys down the street who read 'The Sun' and solve problems by agreeing with whatever they say and getting drunk and beating people up.
i'd be more worried about people who read the daily mail tbqh
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Crayfish
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by Crayfish »

[TS]Lollocide wrote:Yea, giving power to everybody means those guys down the street who read 'The Sun' and solve problems by agreeing with whatever they say and getting drunk and beating people up.
Best sort of government is a benign dictatorship.

Oh, and I will happily volunteer to be your all powerful Emperor...!
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KDR_11k
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

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Jasper1984
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by Jasper1984 »

Teutooni wrote:Oh, to those saying "lol communism sucks", it has never been tried in a truely democratic country.
I agree, and lack of freedom of expression fits that pattern too. Many countries that got socialistic might not have if it was decided democratically, though.
manored wrote:if someday somehow we manage to change/counter-act human nature we should surely implement communism.
No we shouldn't, because pure socialism nor any human nature by itself solve the problem of determining which ways of doing things work and which does not in a fair manner, or solve who gets to try what ideas. I think capitalism with wealth redistribution can work quite well. I also think complexity of many things really needs to be improved, and much of this over complexity is due to the haphazard creation of economic systems, and the fact that people have their interests in the system, and try to bend/change the rules in that way.

Oh, yeah, i also want to note that the definition of ownership is also linked to the two points of my earlier post. You can see ownership as a right or as a tool. If you lean far to rights, tax is theft, if you cling to it as a tool, you think it more as something that is given by society to reward things and to use for the common(and own) good, and then taking some of it for use elsewhere makes sense.
For instance, i think people should be allowed to live in buildings that are left empty for very low/zero rent, because it just does not serve any purpose otherwise. (Barring collapse danger and such, of course.)

BTW the strip is from http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2938 (and is nice)
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manored
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by manored »

manored wrote:if someday somehow we manage to change/counter-act human nature we should surely implement communism.
Jasper1984 wrote:No we shouldn't, because pure socialism nor any human nature by itself solve the problem of determining which ways of doing things work and which does not in a fair manner, or solve who gets to try what ideas. I think capitalism with wealth redistribution can work quite well. I also think complexity of many things really needs to be improved, and much of this over complexity is due to the haphazard creation of economic systems, and the fact that people have their interests in the system, and try to bend/change the rules in that way.
A leader could be chosen among the society in a democratic manner or through a competition who then would make such decisions, wide circulation of information could also lead to a self-governing society (People in a city decide to make a bridge, all others know on the moment and do something else needed). If we got rid of the pesky human tendences that cause harm to his own kind, that are basically the tendences we have towards having more than others, capitalism would no longer have a reason to be, why have a goverment that allows you to be rich if you have no interest into being rich?
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BaNa
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by BaNa »

manored wrote:Yeah communism isnt really a good idea because human nature prevents it from working in the way it should work, but if someday somehow we manage to change/counter-act human nature we should surely implement communism.
hey i missed this the first time around. I'm trying really hard not to flame you or anything, but do you actually read and think about your posts before you click submit?

Why would we want to change or counter-act human nature? It is innate to us. The point is to have a socio-cultural system which incorporates our knowledge of human nature into it. As you said, the failing of communism is that it does not take human nature into account. What follows from this is not that WE have to change, but that that ideal (communism) is flawed and doesn't work.
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imbaczek
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by imbaczek »

wake me up when you're discussing game theory ;p
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manored
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by manored »

No matter what government we invent it will never work because there are always going to be those who exploit the system, therefore merely trying to improve the government is useless, we must improve the society as well. If we reach a state of perfection (everbody puts the whole before thenselves) there will be no reason to have a form of government other than communism or, for a centralized government, socialism.
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Sleksa
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

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Jasper1984
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by Jasper1984 »

I agree that any sort of system will still require the people themselves to think for themselves, and act morally.
Also, there is no single human nature, there are a lot of different humans which each individually behave in different ways in different situations.
manored wrote:A leader could be chosen among the society in a democratic manner or through a competition who then would make such decisions
What kind of competition would be best? How do you prevent popularity contests or stubborn elites. In many cases having the contest in reality is better, just making a product and see what people is best/ is used more.
Edit: sleksas post, from http://threepanelsoul.com/view.php?date=2008-09-22, i like links :).
Last edited by Jasper1984 on 26 Sep 2008, 15:08, edited 1 time in total.
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manored
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by manored »

There are common behaviors tough. You dont need everone to be honest, if like 90% are honest and hunt the dishonest ones thats enough.

I suppose intelligence and morality competitions would be best.
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KDR_11k
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by KDR_11k »

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Seriously this whole thread could be replaced with Sinfest.
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Michilus_nimbus
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by Michilus_nimbus »

Why would we want to change or counter-act human nature? It is innate to us. The point is to have a socio-cultural system which incorporates our knowledge of human nature into it. As you said, the failing of communism is that it does not take human nature into account. What follows from this is not that WE have to change, but that that ideal (communism) is flawed and doesn't work.
I believe counter-acting our nature is exactly what makes us human, and not some kind of well adapted ape. If we want to uplift our species, we need to restrict our animal behavior. Except maybe at parties and in bed.
Saying WE don't need to change is very easy.
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manored
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by manored »

Michilus_nimbus wrote:
Why would we want to change or counter-act human nature? It is innate to us. The point is to have a socio-cultural system which incorporates our knowledge of human nature into it. As you said, the failing of communism is that it does not take human nature into account. What follows from this is not that WE have to change, but that that ideal (communism) is flawed and doesn't work.
I believe counter-acting our nature is exactly what makes us human, and not some kind of well adapted ape. If we want to uplift our species, we need to restrict our animal behavior. Except maybe at parties and in bed.
Saying WE don't need to change is very easy.
We need to restrict it at parties and in bed too, one of the problems of the world is that poor people have too much children :)
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Monkwarrior
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by Monkwarrior »

Within 4 years all these financial structures will be irrelevant.
The current "crisis" is just a prelude.

Peace, Monk.
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tombom
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by tombom »

Monkwarrior wrote:Within 4 years all these financial structures will be irrelevant.
The current "crisis" is just a prelude.

Peace, Monk.
please eludicate!
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KDR_11k
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by KDR_11k »

manored wrote:We need to restrict it at parties and in bed too, one of the problems of the world is that poor people have too much children :)
At least they do, you should blame the rich and smart instead for not having children. there's nothign to stop them from breeding like rabbits too but I guess intelligence like that is an evoutionary dead-end because you're too busy making money with your smarts to ensure the survival of your genes.
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Monkwarrior
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by Monkwarrior »

tombom wrote:please eludicate!
Well search for 2012 and you will be astonished how many things are yet to happen to yourself on a subconscious level.

More close to home and more juicy is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8c0ppYYT6o

This means that in 2 weeks time mankind will change it's views and ways :D

Monk.
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Sleksa
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by Sleksa »

KDR_11k wrote: Seriously this whole thread could be replaced with Sinfest.

+1 +1
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tombom
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?

Post by tombom »

Monkwarrior wrote:
tombom wrote:please eludicate!
Well search for 2012 and you will be astonished how many things are yet to happen to yourself on a subconscious level.

More close to home and more juicy is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8c0ppYYT6o

This means that in 2 weeks time mankind will change it's views and ways :D

Monk.
Oh cool, insane theories with no basis. Why the fuck did you link me to a youtube video titled "First contact"? What the hell is yet to happen to myself "on a subconscious level"?
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