idea for a new mod

[KaiserJ]

inspired by "micro modules" by KDR, i was thinking the other day about a similar "module" based RTS, which would be simpler in some ways than micro modules, and in other ways much more complicated.

the basis of this idea is that each fighting unit (and most buildings) will be composed of a hull object, in which sits a functional module (or two?). the hulls will be available in many different types such as tanks, walkers, boats, planes and turrets. the attatched functional module will take the role of "what does the unit actually do", i.e. a constructor module, a plasma cannon module, a solar panel module, etc etc. with functions similar to those seen in *A games (no need to get too fancy... yet)

the idea is that you will be able to quickly and easily construct custom units depending on what situations you are faced with in the game. unlike micro modules, you will only be able to add as many modules to your hulls as there are slots available (im envisioning the teched up hulls to have two or more slots for modules, and factories to have four slots)

also unlike micro modules, hulls and modules that are attatched will stay attatched forever (until it dies etc.) except for the commander who should be able to hop into whatever sort of vehicle he likes whenever he likes (after all, he's the boss )

here are some pics of what i'm talking about, sorry about the horrible quality, my scanner gave a death rattle when i turned it on so i had to resort to a digital camera, and i drew these in about half an hour with a ballpoint and a brown pencil crayon


^^this shows some of the ideas i had for basic units (tier one if you will) note the square holes into which the modules will fit



^^some other ideas i had for more advanced units as well as a factory

and now comes me asking for advice. you can see how i've made the modules square in order to fit into the hulls; i was thinking that using a transport behavior to hold the modules in place after noticing the t1 transports in BA physically hold the units in place, and that commanders can still build while in transport; essentially i'd need to be able to have the modules function as they should do once inside a hull such as shoot or build or generate power or what have you (note : they shouldnt be able to do anything but move around unless they are attatched to a hull)

1) can i make a game like this, or is it an exercise in futility?
2) will it be a big processor hit to have hundreds of units held together in such a way?
3) does anyone like or dislike this idea?

i'm very confident that i would be able to model and skin the units as well as design a meaningful tech tree; i would probably need a hand eventually with animating the units... what i'm really concerned with right now is to find out if i can use a transport behavior in the way i've shown to create a fighting unit / stationary building; this would be instrumental to this ideas success.

thanks in advance for constructive comments :)

[KaiserJ]

edit : commander can't do things while being transported not sure why i thought that.

seems to make this idea a lot less likely.

[Pressure Line]

try bloX

[AF]

Commander CAN do things while being transported, the *A mods have just chosen to add tags to prevent this.

Many of the non *A mods have scenario where units can fire while being transported.

[Google_Frog]

BloX:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8787&hilit=blox
http://spring.jobjol.nl/show_file.php?id=1057 (link because UF is down)

I think you should make modules unloadable or else it's just like a normal RTS with a lot more micro required to make units. You might want to consider letting modules work without a chassis too.

You'll need a mex module too. It might be interesting if it worked even when loaded.

[KDR_11k]

Yeah, having it act like normal units except you have to assemble it by hand does nothing except add micro, you could add an interface to select pre-combined units and build those. If you only have chassis and turret as modules you're not really doing anything you couldn't just do with predefined units, whether you buy a tank with a cannon or a tank body and a cannon turret doesn't make a difference. There'll just be some combos that work well and others that don't and all it does is obscure which units a player can use. E&E is based on a game where you designed units yourself but has a fixed unit selection that consists of pretty much all meaningful combinations you can make and there's no real loss. Customization starts making sense as you get more part categories so you can change many things about your units and design something the way you want it instead of merely filling your build menu with all the plans that make sense.

Another issue is balance, having turrets and chassises act independent of each other means you'll have trouble balancing stuff as you can't say how many HP or what speed the chassis under a given turret will have. Mounting long-range turrets on fast chassises = lolkite. With limitations you could say "weapon A is restricted to units that can be shot down easily, weapon B only works on slow bodies" etc.

[KaiserJ]

first of all, thanks for all of the handy advice, especially from people who have worked with spring before, i'm glad i made this thread before firing up 3dsmax... probably saved myself a lot of heartache. quick replies too, thanks a lot for that as well.

@ pressure : i'm going to have a peek at blox, on jobjol the file is a .zip so i'm assuming it's probably a work in progress... is there a playable version available? just from looking at what it said though, it's a nice bloat-free starting point for me to work from.

@ AF : booyah! :D i think i might have somehow glitched my commander at some point playing BA, i remember him continuing to work on a building as i picked him up and carried him away. i will look into these tags when i come to it, but it's nice to know that this idea is feasable.

@ Google Frog : you know, that really does make a lot of sense, especially after reading KDR_11k's post as well... being able to un-merge the units could be a big tactical gain in many ways and would probably enhance the gameplay a lot, especially if the attributes of the module depended on what sort of hull it was in (making AA towers on the fly, putting t2 modules into old t1 hulls and vice versa.) as far as the mex modules go, wouldnt it be fun to make a whole fleet of scout trike mexes to race across the map at the beginning to sit on metal spots and then withdraw when an enemy approaches them? i can see cruel and unusual new strategies already.

@ KDR_11k : well said, i can see how that would get extremely irritating (especially if you wanted to make a mixed force rather than spamming the same type of unit over and over.) how about these ideas, maybe you can tell me how far-fetched they are

solution 1 -
this seems like the easier idea to implement. seperate factories would make hulls and modules. only modules would be able to use the "merge" function, and the merge function would be able to be set as a patrol/area effect command on the modules as well as the module factory. this would allow you to set a factory waypoint that would tell the module "once you leave the factory, go to this area, and if there is an empty hull inside it, merge with it, and if not, check again within the area after a certain number of ticks." that way, you'd be able to set up two factories with a bank of nanos in the middle, and if you set the hull waypoint to the same area as the module waypoint, they would assemble themselves.

solution 2 -
create template hulls and modules with the commander (build them like a building) and "load" the completed unit into a factory (just one factory this time). the completed unit would then show up in the factory list as buildable, and you would be able to pop out completed units ready for spammage.

as far as balancing the mod goes, i hadnt really considered things like making a bertha module and sticking it in a scout trike hull, or making a tremor module and sticking it in a gunship hehe i guess i would assign a "weight" to each module, the hulls would only be able to merge with modules of a weight that they could carry in order to restrict the more powerful weapons to the slower, stronger units. also, i'd like the hulls themselves to change the effect of the modules... i was thinking that turret hulls would increase weapons range and damage (and construction power and range for that matter) while having a module in a weaker hull would slightly reduce the potency of its effects.

i think my next step will be to start mucking around with some other mods and see what i can get working; i'll probably also make a few models and learn more about how to get them working in spring (i've read extensively, but havent tried it yet)

TBH im pretty happy, nobody called me a complete idiot, and the idea seems to have provoked some interest :) i hope to have more to show soon; but please keep the feedback and discussion coming along, your help is very valuable. thanks again guys!

[KDR_11k]

Let me formulate a rule of RTSes: There are no cool, effective fringe strategies, anything effective will become a standard move of the game.

Fast trikes with mexes capping the map won't be a cool thing one player thinks of to defeat his opponent, it will become a standard opening where anything less makes you lose the game. The movie climax of the underdog thinking up a cool new approach and winning the war with it won't happen much in reality, once a new strategy has been tried it's known and people will adapt. A movie has one big battle, maybe two. A game has hundreds upon hundreds of battles. The new thing will happen in one, then it's standard or countered. In fact it's likely that the underdog is holding on with teeth and nails and suddently the winning player kills him with an unpredicted move.

What will having modules really change compared to prebuilt units in your game design? Things like the trike mexes sounds like you're begging for people to mix up gamebreakers.

[SpliFF]

It isn't a dealbreaker but KDR has a point. Warzone2100 featured the ability to add turrets to chassis (but you designed them, they don't change once built). The point is the best players ignored most of the combinations and went straight for winning ones (vtols with lasers) along a pretty fixed path. If you tried to go flamers you'd pretty much lose.

Having said that this was essentially a balance problem, probably brought on by having so many unit combinations to balance, so for your idea to work you need to balance very, very well. Even the slightest weakness in a weapon or chassis will cause the best players to ignore it, and then as KDR said you wouldn't really have modules as much as "standard unit combinations".

[KaiserJ]

@ KDR: i understand what you mean; i can see how balancing this mod would be a nightmare. i was sort of thinking i'd somehow balance it so that there's always a counter to each strat... so rather than a balance, it would be an extreme imbalance in terms of "this module can always beat this hull" sort of balance

i.e.

base defenses will always easily beat air -> air will always beat land units -> land units will always beat base defenses (yes, that sounds ridiculous, but it would mean you would have to have some tanks and planes sitting around to defend.) new tiers of tech would disrupt this to the point where a t2 module for base defense could beat a land unit...

each hull would have weaknesses and strengths against each module type.

@ spliff: i've never played said game, but from your description, i can understand how this mod could be an epic fail... i mean, the last thing i would want after putting in work to make 100s of models would be to have people largely ignore them all and only build a certain combination... not to mention that the games would be extremely dry and boring.



so it's back to the shoebox for this idea; i still like it but im starting to see how much work it would be (and how unlikely a nub like me could get it all working properly as the first thing i ever made for spring)

maybe i'll make some sexy maps instead for the time being :) thanks again for the help lads.

[SpliFF]

Don't be too discouraged. With Warzone2100 modders came along later and fixed many of the balance issues; and the game still has a large enough following for Eidos to give in to fan requests and open-source it and all of its IP, data and trademarks. It's actually the only title I've even known where that happened except for Blender, and that was a buy-out, not a donation.

Anyway... balance is an issue with any game but fortunately it's also something that can usually be fixed.

[Tribulexrenamed]

<3 wz2100

Kustorian mod.
BloX
And also, something in my mysterious mod.

But good artwork, go ahead and do it.