9/11, what were you doing when it happened (Mainly American)

[Forboding Angel]

The english was pretty bad on that post but I agree with picasso. Any of the morons babbling about how bad America is have not looked at the rest of the world. Compared to other countries Americas transgressions are small and laughable in comparison.

Agreed. It's such a double standard.

[smoth]

Agreed. It's such a double standard.

It isn't a double standard so much as we are being a scape-goat. That is fine for Europe but it does to some degree hurt the value of our currency.

[Snipawolf]

I don't remember.

[maackey]

I was in second grade, in my geography class? I think. Someone came in and handed my teacher a letter, and she read some stuff about how some planes crashed into some buildings, and I was like, "Hmm, thats interesting I guess. Not really that big a deal tho..." I got home and it was all over the TV. I couldn't watch cartoons on ANY channel because all the news stations were on covering the story. For the whole next week I couldn't watch any of my cartoons. I was really annoyed. Only later did I learn of the actual severity of the attacks, slowly, over the years.

[manored]

The english was pretty bad on that post but I agree with picasso. Any of the morons babbling about how bad America is have not looked at the rest of the world. Compared to other countries Americas transgressions are small and laughable in comparison.

I would instead say that we just cant call a country "evil". All countries act in an selfish manner for some reason, if they seen to not its because they didnt had a worth reason yet.

[tombom]

the usa doesn't exactly top the list of most evil nations ever but you shouldn't ignore the bad things that have happened. pretty much everybody and everything has done plenty of things wrong, and it's not good to deny it

"those who foroget the pasdt are doomed to repeat it" ~somebody7 cool

[smoth]

no shit, really the us has done bad things? what about manifest destiny. I made no statement that this or any country is a standing model of good and honest. Seriously dude, if you believe that we are that closed minded you have not met an american.

[tombom]

no shit, really the us has done bad things? what about manifest destiny. I made no statement that this or any country is a standing model of good and honest. Seriously dude, if you believe that we are that closed minded you have not met an american.

of course not

just pointing it out! (i know there are some people who believe it, i guess it's just the internet attracting idiots though)

[Panda]

I was studying.

I saw the people jumping out of the building and rescue teams digging through rubble and thought it was an awful event, but then decided that I couldn't exactly go over there and sit next some of the victims family members and try to be comforting or anything, so I watch for a little bit and continued to do my homework. There isn't really a whole lot you can say to someone who is affected by something like that. I would think that telling a victim's loved one something like, how awful ..., might be more upsetting than if you had said nothing at all.

[manored]

You could try to ask then why they liked their loved ones until they ran out of answers, that would either make then fell better or think you are crazy :)

[SwiftSpear]

The english was pretty bad on that post but I agree with picasso. Any of the morons babbling about how bad America is have not looked at the rest of the world. Compared to other countries Americas transgressions are small and laughable in comparison.

That's not the issue. The reality is, america's international policy regarding oil has resulted in some SERIOUS problems in the middle east. That's why people hate USA there. Europeans might resent USA's additude, but they don't hate you. A European that believes most americans are jerks is one thing, but they don't believe that most americans need to be murdered for what they have done to Europe. I'm not saying that America's crimes are greater than every superpower before it. It's simply cause and effect. If you're responsible for killing someone's friends and family they might very well be happy to give their live to take a bunch of you out.

Could you imagine if in america today, China pumped hundreds of millions of dollars worth of guns and military equipment into the hands of known mafia members and blood gangsters, who then took those guns and attempted multiple hostile takeovers and murdered pretty much anyone who got in their path. That's basically what America did in the middle east. That's really not the worst thing a global superpower has ever done, fine, but you can't tell me that you wouldn't have every frigging right to be furious at china if they did indeed undertake that action. I'd be willing to bet that some of you would jump at the first chance to crash a plane into the Chinese governmental building for that.

I'm not saying that innocent americans, most of which didn't even know what has happened, deserve to die for their immaterial sins. I'm saying, stop being ignorant. The people pissed off at you have a good reason to be, stop letting your government continue to ignore them. The largest economic driver in the world CAN NOT ethically undercut foreign policy spending, they CAN NOT ethically practice foreign independence, the American government needs to be forced by it's people to take people outside your boarders seriously.

[bwansy]

I can't agree with Swiftspear more. Indeed no one would take such extreme actions for no reasons at all. People who think that "Americas transgressions are small and laughable in comparison" should really find out what their government is doing instead of blindly believing what F*X or C*N are telling them, or else they have been blatantly applying double standard. *Enters ranting mode* Of course besides the US's sins, a lot of conflicts (many parts in Africa [present], Crusades), holocaust (Nazi German [WW2], Imperial Japan [WW2]), tyranny (N. Korea [present], Swaziland [present]) and other crazy things that you cannot imagine (Cultural 'Revolution' in China [1960s], European Colonisations and the racial segregations and slaveries following) happened, and are still happening all around the world,, and these are all, in magnitude, close to, if not larger than what the US had done over the past century.

Personally, I think it's a tragedy if any innocent person dies. ANYONE. Whether the people in the collapsing WTC towers, or the Iraqi villagers under carpet bombing (at least that's I heard from the (non-American) news).

I was watching TV when it happened. At that time, America is so far away, and I was still small, that I didn't give a damn. But now, it gives me chills whenever I think of it, especially now my city is under the threat of Tibetan terrorist attacks (although they do nothing more than planting bombs in subway stations).

Stop making war, play Spring!

[manored]

You know I dont like the concept of "innocent person" very much. How is a civilian working on the mother land less responsible for the deaths on a war than a soldier fighting in the front? The soldier couldnt be there if there wasnt somebody seending him supplies.

Its true that these people didnt asked to be born in the country, or for the country to enter war, but we do not have the right to chose in everthing, the world is not that fair, and it sounds more painfull to hope it could be.

[bwansy]

True. But does it mean that we have to kill everyone in that country? Innocence is relative. As long as one hasn't consciously done something terrible, one is more innocent. A person who pays tax, from which one half has gone into producing weapons, is more innocent than one who votes for a pro-war politician. Soldier who fights on his homeland to protect his friends and family is far more innocent than one who rushes into foreign villages shooting at anything that moves. Again, it's a complicated issue, and no one has a definitive answer. This world is not simply black-and-white like a certain Texas-cowboy-in-the-throne suggested.

[Snipawolf]

Black and white?

No, merely light and shadows. It's all relativity.

[smoth]

That's not the issue. The reality is, america's international policy regarding oil has resulted in some SERIOUS problems in the middle east. That's why people hate USA there.

NO WAI, I have never met anyone from Kuwait or saudi arabia, I have NO friends that fought in iraq.

Europeans might resent USA's additude, but they don't hate you. A European that believes most americans are jerks is one thing, but they don't believe that most americans need to be murdered for what they have done to Europe.

NO WAI, I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO EUROPE!

I'm not saying that America's crimes are greater than every superpower before it. It's simply cause and effect. If you're responsible for killing someone's friends and family they might very well be happy to give their live to take a bunch of you out.

Yes, we are the sole person to be responsible for murder over there.

Could you imagine if in america today, China pumped hundreds of millions of dollars worth of guns and military equipment into the hands of known mafia members and blood gangsters, who then took those guns and attempted multiple hostile takeovers and murdered pretty much anyone who got in their path. That's basically what America did in the middle east.

We have police, a military and crazy motherfuckers who want to see that day. As opposed to a country that has massive poverty? Come on, that isn't even a comparable situation.

That's really not the worst thing a global superpower has ever done, fine, but you can't tell me that you wouldn't have every frigging right to be furious at china if they did indeed undertake that action. I'd be willing to bet that some of you would jump at the first chance to crash a plane into the Chinese governmental building for that.

no, we have better weapons and no need to use ourselves as guides for incendiary devices.

I'm saying, stop being ignorant.

I'll stop being ignorant when you start displaying ominscence. If you want to imply that I am grossly ignorant of the facts then you insult me and have never had any respect for me. These sort of statements are why I hate political discussions, people say ugly things that are really inappropriate.

The people pissed off at you have a good reason to be, stop letting your government continue to ignore them.

Do they? When I watched the coverage of the iraq war I was sad to hear an iraqi man say that we will go in, take out Sadam and leave when they really need us. Reguardless of whether or not Bush had a good reason and despite the fact that the so called rightous douchbags condemn me for it... I VOTE BUSH THE SECOND TERM. Because the ONLY power I have as a citizen is to vote and I did not want us to pull all our troops and leave them in chaos. No I do not like Bush and despite my typical tongue in cheek comments(I hate politics) I use my power as a citizen where I can. Now, you may hate me or whatever, but I did not want to vote for a man who would pull our troops out and leave those people in a worse situation.

I was not alive around the time of creation for the CIA, it was never up to a vote, nor was the patriot act. I read the fucking thing, did you? So don't fucking preach to me about how I deserve to be hated for the transgressions of another generation. I didn't vote Bush in the first election and was a Gore supporter. So before you go and rail me on some preconcieved notion that I am some ignorant fuckwitt fucking his sister in a backwater town how about you think that I might be a thinking feeling human being pull your head out of my ass or your ass,where ever it is.

The largest economic driver in the world CAN NOT ethically undercut foreign policy spending, they CAN NOT ethically practice foreign independence, the American government needs to be forced by it's people to take people outside your boarders seriously.

Oh really? By doing what? Voting? yeah I do that.

Bwansy way to be a me too, you want to tear into me that is fine if you actually knew me. You didn't and the fact that you used swift's post as a spring board to attack me is pathetic and weak. FYI, I do not watch fox or CNN, I watch HGTV, that is right, I watch only shows about INTERIOR DESIGN. I get my news through google news on my igoogle and on serious issues I read the article from several sources. Of course what do you know, you would rather fly off the handle and incorrectly say that the US has done anything near the spanish inquisition or hitler. The fact that you can see the us as the equivelent to Japan. Yes, we raped and murdered a town of 300,000 for fun. Or we commited genocide base on the fact that some dudes have funny hats and big noses... and we definitely murder and annihilation whole civilizations for not being christians.

The fact that both of you took the time to personally attack me to the point that I am actually serious is why I do not agrea with political discussion. It always ends up with people being douchebags and you both should be ashamed for you assumptions and attacks on my character, education and life experiences.

[SwiftSpear]

Mmm, I suppose I did make a a strawman out of you there. Honestly, I intended just to attack the point, not the person. "We may not be perfect but we're pretty good" is not a good argument for why Afghans should not be angry at your foreign policy. Especially when I refer to "americans forcing their government" I'm not refering to you, because, in all honesty the problem is one of ignorance, and I don't consider you remotely ignorant.

The problem is that right now, if you're someone getting fucked over by America, terrorism is incredibly profitable. Kill a couple thousand USAers and your issue becomes front page news, even if it's something the American government would rather not talk about. Because, by enlarge, American people aren't looking at or paying attention to the rest of the world, and yet their vote is still determining what idiot is going to be driving the giant for the next 4 years. If the American people forced their politicians to develop strong and intelligent foreign policies and understood the global ramifications of their countries actions better there would be less people getting crushed under the giant's toes.

[smoth]

if you know how we can force the politicians to not be wankers, please tell us, because I am sure at least 2 bil people are looking for a solution to the bullshit politicians pull. I do not even believe that it is just americans, it is outright ALL PEOPLE who do not give a flying rat's dick about the world. People are just too tied up in their lives.

Also swift, you have to consider that the us is the 3rd highest jewish population in the world, the second being canada. We are a boldly christian nation with puritanical ways and the keys to one of the bigest war machine. All things that are bad in their eyes. However, i still think that it is not about rationality. Everyone I know who has lived or fought there has told me that it is outright crazed fundie crap. The religious dipshits here in the south were SCREAMING for a crusade. IMO all religious fundamentalism is the core of most of the stupid fucking wars.

Honestly the damn terrorists have a perverted version of Islam that would probably enrage Muhammad into an aneurysm. They have a ridiculously strong belief about it and NO way of educating themselves and at this point I wonder if there would ever be a way to get to them. Sure it would be great it the us had done education rather than war training but that is a convo for elsewhere. Thing is I do not believe that most of the people that are terrorist have any direct influence of americans... as in I do not believe they are had relatives killed by us. Religion makes men mad. The priest in kingdom of heaven best put it:

By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god.

while this might be incorrect and maybe the terrorist have a truely logical and rational reason. However, I do believe that maybe 30% of those guys have really been directly victimized by a us soldier. It terrifies me when I think about how they perverted the Koran and worry for them and see no way out for them. They can be a glories fighter for islam or live in a dirt hut. I think that rational alone draws many an energetic youth... just like the us military. Don't get me wrong, I do respect the us troops but I do not believe they are all in the military for a truely good reason.

[Peet]

if you know how we can force the politicians to not be wankers, please tell us, because I am sure at least 2 bil people are looking for a solution to the bullshit politicians pull

NDP 4 US power!!1

[manored]

True. But does it mean that we have to kill everyone in that country? Innocence is relative. As long as one hasn't consciously done something terrible, one is more innocent. A person who pays tax, from which one half has gone into producing weapons, is more innocent than one who votes for a pro-war politician. Soldier who fights on his homeland to protect his friends and family is far more innocent than one who rushes into foreign villages shooting at anything that moves. Again, it's a complicated issue, and no one has a definitive answer. This world is not simply black-and-white like a certain Texas-cowboy-in-the-throne suggested.

However we cannot say who is innocent and who is not and, does it really matters? Somebody might have tried to prevent his country from going into war but, if in the end the country takes that decision, he will have to put up with the consequences just like those who aproved the war... the world is not fair.

The world IS simple, humans are complex :) I believe its possible to make humans simple to, but we need a mass world-scale reeducation project, what is hardly going to happen.