Default Mod syndrome harming spring

[Forboding Angel]

AFAIK there are some hacked exe's or lua stuff that is pretty much cheating, but in a community this small, who would have the balls to release it?

For that matter where would you release it? This site, your site, and springinfo (not to mention jobjol) are about the only places people go.

It will undoubtedly become an issue at some point, but I don't see any point in getting real worked up about it as yet. This community is tiny, and that is it's main protection.

(Musing at this point)

I myself am wondering if I want to be a part of it much longer honestly. It's been a great hobby, but our single player support is non existent for the most part, and that is personally one of the main things I am interested in. I suppose after 1.0 of Evo is done we'll see.

The main thing that drives me nuts about this place is the fact that this community has some sort of masochistic desire to not strive for easily reachable goals. The amount of people here (Not counting the engine and various lobby devs) who really seem to what spring to succeed as a project (and actually do something about it) can be pretty much counted on one hand. Myself, you (smoth), Argh, Aegis, Lurker. The rest seem to just be going with the flow and hanging on for the ride. TBH it's a damn shame really.

Here is the TL;DR of the entire spring debacle. As long as *A content is allowed to exist upon the main server, OC Games have virtually no chance, even with proper and widespread marketing. Hence, why myself and other people (who shall remain nameless unless they want to speak up) are working towards an unofficial solution, but on the other hand, part of me is thinking "Why bother?". My main philosophy is "Lead, Follow, or get the Fuck out of my way" (Keep in mind that that does not mean I'm saying "My way or the highway"), but tbh, I'm kind of tired of trying to carry all the stuff that no one else wants to do. Grunt work sucks, but I do it and just put my mind in another place because I know it needs to be done and I have the desire for the end result, but lately I've been losing that desire.

To you guys, 250 people in the lobby might be a big deal, but to me it's laughable. Sure it's a big deal to *A mods, but to me all it does is illustrate that Spring has a long way to go before really gaining traction and *A is utter deadweight at this point.

Certain fanboi's of *A mods like to point out that without *A spring would be dead, which is completely topped with a layer of total bullshit. Keeping things the way they are now is going to perpetuate the cycle and as a result we won't ever really get anywhere. The OC games need a place where they can have a chance to flourish, not stagnate as they are doing now. Yeah we add all sorts of neat stuff, but that's fairly useless if no one sees it.

The worst part of the whole deal is the fact that OC games aren't really officially supported by our engine devs (yes they cater to us quite a bit, however, they don't push the OC stuff). They are perfectly fine with *A being dominant and see not much reason to rock the boat, hell, the program that they work like slaves on is being used by a decent number of people and I have trouble faulting them for that.

[Tim-the-maniac]

Stop crying. How is it bullshit that without XTA and then AA/BA that spring would be dead? Its not like there has been anything else decent to play for years.

Ive played the few other mods spring has to offer and while they might look alot better they sure as hell are no where near as fun as ba or xta. I'm impressed the first few times I load the new mods up as I see the models but then simply looking good isnt gonna keep me. It has to play well too.
I think one of the main reasons no mod has been able to get a playerbase is that people will release their mod before its anywhere near as polished gameplay wise as ta mods. Why keep trying new versions when the first version was crappy and you are happy with ba anyway?

ps. I really liked the look of one pure version I tried, it was pretty bad to play but its been a while and I heard argh has got quite a few testers before he releases again. I just hope its ready when he does

[Tim-the-maniac]

The worst part of the whole deal is the fact that OC games aren't really officially supported by our engine devs (yes they cater to us quite a bit, however, they don't push the OC stuff). They are perfectly fine with *A being dominant and see not much reason to rock the boat, hell, the program that they work like slaves on is being used by a decent number of people and I have trouble faulting them for that.

hmm just read the rest of your moronic post.
You think that ba wouldnt run on spring a few versions ago? You think that its changed much according to what engine changes have come? You think the huge amount of work which have been put into the implementation of lua and other such things have made ba possible? (are you capable of thinking?)

[Pxtl]

Gotta disagree with Tim. Gundam has always been opaque to me - could never get into it... but EE is a freaking awesome game and I'm always bewildered that it never caught on. And EE has always been there, being ignored.

[Hoi]

Missions system is being worked on (last time I heard something from it) just relax and realise that spring isnt really used friendly yet, more needs to be done (and you can be a part of it!)

As with almost nobody playing evo, think of it as a virus, when nobody is infected it wont ever spread, but when somebody is (that's you ) he can carry the disease to other people, some will heal and some will not(dont mind the stupid example), just get your 1.0 done, make it cool and ask people to come and play, make sure atleast 1x game a day is played so the network of evo players will expand, and expand, and expand.

Just keep it inside the community, I once asked a friend of mine to try install spring on his own and get it to work, and he failed! this happens with alot of people, so really, spring needs to get used friendly, the site is a great start, the most important thing that needs to be done is that tasclient always autoconnects to the main server, so you have to change it everytime (I see alot of noobs stuck in the backup server)

[very_bad_soldier]

EDIT: scratch it

[Hoi]

Here is the TL;DR of the entire spring debacle. As long as *A content is allowed to exist upon the main server, OC Games have virtually no chance, even with proper and widespread marketing. Hence, why myself and other people (who shall remain nameless unless they want to speak up) are working towards an unofficial solution, but on the other hand, part of me is thinking "Why bother?". My main philosophy is "Lead, Follow, or get the Fuck out of my way" (Keep in mind that that does not mean I'm saying "My way or the highway"), but tbh, I'm kind of tired of trying to carry all the stuff that no one else wants to do. Grunt work sucks, but I do it and just put my mind in another place because I know it needs to be done and I have the desire for the end result, but lately I've been losing that desire.

A server without *A/ *A filtered, players join it when they download your game with its own changed lobby server! Problem is, what if there are no non *A games up? Well, the incredible Hoi once again has the solution!



I has deserv box o cookies!

[Forboding Angel]

Stop crying. How is it bullshit that without XTA and then AA/BA that spring would be dead? Its not like there has been anything else decent to play for years.

orly? EE? *Cough Cough*

Ive played the few other mods spring has to offer and while they might look alot better they sure as hell are no where near as fun as ba or xta. I'm impressed the first few times I load the new mods up as I see the models but then simply looking good isnt gonna keep me. It has to play well too.
I think one of the main reasons no mod has been able to get a playerbase is that people will release their mod before its anywhere near as polished gameplay wise as ta mods. Why keep trying new versions when the first version was crappy and you are happy with ba anyway?

This part just pisses me off. YOU ARE FULL OF FUCKING SHIT!

(are you capable of thinking?)

Yes. Are you capable of thinking before making a reply? You obviously didn't read my post, otherwise you would realize that the points you made were already addressed by me.

(yes they cater to us quite a bit, however, they don't push the OC stuff)

@hoi (and everyone else for that matter),
I wish you guys would realize that what I was talking about had little to do with Evo. I don't really care about that tbh. I'm more concerned about the OC portion of things in general.

I also agree that the usability issue is huge.

#Edit: Holy hell, triviabot is back and working???? Where have I been??

[KaiserJ]

voice of noobishness here

i've defenitely played BA more than any other mod... not by choice, not because i decided "oh, im a BA" player, but because it seems like when i'm on the lobby, most of the games going on are of BA, and the few that are of a different mod are either passworded, or populated by very experienced players who would wipe the floor with me even in a mod im used to.

perhaps unlike some of the other players described on here, i'm more than willing to try new mods and maps and suchforth. after all, the reason i checked out spring in the first place was to try something different, i'd hardly be being true to myself by refusing to do anything but play 5v5 DsD BA

i think my biggest problem with some of the mods is that they are actually very tricky to play; i remember being very confused in my early build in XTA, last night having my mind boggled by the three pages of buildings on my NOTA command tower, being raped hard in 1944 because of radar considerations. (not that i didnt have fun, they are all good mods representing a LOT of work and care)

now... im not saying BA was easy to learn, far from it... but i think with BA i had the advantage of having teammates or spectators who were willing to give me feedback after my first few games... the first few games of BA that i actually played effectively (not saying i won, just saying i wasnt building mexes on the geo spots) were 1v1 against another noob opponent, hosted by an experienced player who gave us both tips and advice.

bottom line for me... sure, i'll continue to join and try other mods... but i think the big failing point that other mods have that sets them apart from BA is that there really isnt much "coaching" going on. the way i learned just about every RTS i've ever played was by playing a campaign (not saying "go make campaigns", just trying to point out that there is a learning process every time you try a new game or mod or map... being coached by an experienced player helped me in the same way a campaign would have)

and now a few suggestions for people supporting their mods and being frustrated that few people are playing them

1) host! it's a lot more likely that people will try a new mod if somebody else is hosting. if a new player joins, dont just shuffle them into spec, let them have a space in the game and give them as much advice and encouragement as you can (and if there are LOTS of new players, hit the bench if you're a pro, cheer from the sidelines)

2) spam! not just in main and newbies... send PMs to people! i've joined random games from having an invite sent to me; it made me feel kinda special actually (and yes. if you want to play a game, go ahead and PM me in the lobby :D if im there, i'll join)

3) teach! dont hesitate to give advice to new players, tell them what they did wrong (but maybe more importantly, what they did right.) was just trying to think of how i could contribute somehow here... if anyone is interested in making a "how to play..." video of their mod, i'd be happy to do all of the editing and titling to make said video look extremely spiffy.

TLDR: you see a gorgeous girl sitting in the bar. will you go and buy her a drink? you might, but it would be a hell of a lot easier to pull off if she was smiling and winking at you.

[Forboding Angel]

TLDR: you see a gorgeous girl sitting in the bar. will you go and buy her a drink? you might, but it would be a hell of a lot easier to pull off if she was smiling and winking at you.

Hehehe, kaiserj wins

/thread


That said: Kaiser I completely understand where you're coming from, and also as a "noob" at this point your thoughts carry a lot of weight.

[Tim-the-maniac]

This part just pisses me off. YOU ARE FULL OF FUCKING SHIT!

hhmm in that part all that was said was my personal experiences trying new mods and why I think other people havent stuck with them (by the looks of the games in the lobby its maybe a view shared by many others). which part made you rage?

also "The worst part of the whole deal is the fact that OC games aren't really officially supported by our engine devs"
maybe I'm missing the meaning of this so please tell me.
I see development going away from "its a ta remake" to cater for different types of game.

[smoth]

Gotta disagree with Tim. Gundam has always been opaque to me - could never get into it... but EE is a freaking awesome game and I'm always bewildered that it never caught on.

Why are you picking on me?

Forb I am pretty sure the devs want spring to succeed. I also do not believe in this removal of the *A mods. I don't think it is a very good idea and while I may not like the direction aa took and subsequently BA and the ones after.. that doesn't mean they are not fun.

[Gota]

Stop crying. How is it bullshit that without XTA and then AA/BA that spring would be dead? Its not like there has been anything else decent to play for years.

Ive played the few other mods spring has to offer and while they might look alot better they sure as hell are no where near as fun as ba or xta. I'm impressed the first few times I load the new mods up as I see the models but then simply looking good isnt gonna keep me. It has to play well too.
I think one of the main reasons no mod has been able to get a playerbase is that people will release their mod before its anywhere near as polished gameplay wise as ta mods. Why keep trying new versions when the first version was crappy and you are happy with ba anyway?

ps. I really liked the look of one pure version I tried, it was pretty bad to play but its been a while and I heard argh has got quite a few testers before he releases again. I just hope its ready when he does

Forb are you forgetting how long ago you released your first version of evo?was it ready than?no,it wasnt.
Have to agree with him on that.
Of course its also very hard to test mods unless you have someone to test with :)so testing it on the spring comunity is very tempting just dont be surprised people rememeber your mod with negetive feelings afterwards.

@EE
EE has its problems imo,perticulerly with unit design.That has deffinatly been its weak point along with some desire to make it more "real" by increasing relative shooting ranges and sizes.
That was not a gameplay consideration but some masochistic crusade for aesthetics of play.
I rememeber people saying that wishing for the epic part to be removed was fueled by the desire to just have another ba with a different skin that is correct in a way.
EE was made in the spirit of earth and the moon project but couldnt offer any lego like unit assembly.
in all other aspects BA and earth are pretty similair.
In earth you also place "mexes" and build energy buildings and you fight wiht kbots and tanks.so yes EE was a differently structured ota and all it lacked was the lego like construction which i guess can now be added?instead it strayed completly of its path and failed.
EE used to have a following...
So making EE this overlooked great mod that everyone was too stupid to undrstand is wrong and just stops EE from coming back to its roots.

[Teutooni]

KaiserJ, if only most newbies would be as reasonable as you... Some kind of tutoring classes could be nice, if there really is intrest. Some just ignore advice, or tell people to stfu. Like you said:

TLDR: you see a gorgeous girl sitting in the bar. will you go and buy her a drink? you might, but it would be a hell of a lot easier to pull off if she was smiling and winking at you.

[Google_Frog]

Here is the TL;DR of the entire spring debacle. As long as *A content is allowed to exist upon the main server, OC Games have virtually no chance, even with proper and widespread marketing.

The fact that a mod uses TA content has nothing to do with the success of OC games. The self sustaining player bases of BA with a small spring player base is crushing the OC mods.

1) host! it's a lot more likely that people will try a new mod if somebody else is hosting. if a new player joins, dont just shuffle them into spec, let them have a space in the game and give them as much advice and encouragement as you can (and if there are LOTS of new players, hit the bench if you're a pro, cheer from the sidelines)

How are you suppose to host constantly with a very small player base?

[Gota]

I have barely seen anyone hosting evo games,maybe 3-4 times.
Who else is suppose to host initially if not the developers of a mod..
Host your game more or get it hosted more,get an autohost.
advertise it in the lobby..
No advertisment and no games open.Thats the situation ATM.
how are people suppsoe to rememeber your mod even exists.
you go rentign about xA...BA has open games and needs no advertisment.
If you want to increase your market share advertise.
If you want your mod to not get played and be forgotten except by those posting on these forums than keep silently deving it and renting about how it doesnt get played cause of BA.

[AF]

My eyes are bleeding

We all know that this argument is one that can never be won or resolved through forum threads, because neither side is willing to concede ground.

Stop typing out these threads and start doing something that actually gets you somewhere. Dont say things, proove things. You can argue all you like here about the *A OC content controversy but it will change nothing and ti will be an utter waste of time. Instead put the tiem and effort into the unofficial solutions being touted.

Also Hoi your idea on a separate battle list lends weight to the idea that spring and lobby developers officially endorse TA content. Its utterly futile and does more to harm the issue then solve it.

[El Capitano]

Those of you blaming *A games for your own failings should just sod off and go form your own segregated server as I keep hearing threats about. Pissing and moaning about *A only serves to alienate much of your potential starting community and inclines certain people to blacklist you and your mod.

[Hoi]

Also Hoi your idea on a separate battle list lends weight to the idea that spring and lobby developers officially endorse TA content. Its utterly futile and does more to harm the issue then solve it.

OC games that give a lobby with their stand alone install and just filter *A out of it are much worse than my idea.

[AF]

Hoi you cant just state something is worse you have to explain why!

Your idea lends officialdom to TA games over nonTA games making the problem worse, that was my reasoning! What is yours?