NOTA 1.82

[Otherside]

hammer thud and morty dominate regardless of map/players

[Thor]

That's not true. Try playing a 1v1 on a decent sized map and you will see. Anyway, thuds/hammers are intended to be your main frontline unit for fighting lightly armored units- they're the most cost effective but pay for that with slow speed. They're currently too effective vs. armor which is why you usually don't see players bother with rocket kbots, but that will be addressed next version.

[123vtemp]

If I did not mention it well enough before, the rocket kbots are not effective. Thye get chewed up by nearly all tanks because they are slow have low hp, and low range. Charging tanks have a decent chance of dodging rockets. Even tho flashes have a good chance for dodging rockets the rocket bots are still strong vs flashes and light tanks. Rockos often lose their value on the battle field almost before you are glad you built them. I am not sure how it would go, but turning the rocket kbot range into arty unit range seams like it may have a bad result, but then again it would make them worth building. Even so I bet I would turn to a faster unit for spamming against tech 2 tanks and such. Spam is the best way to kill poorly supported units such as a Goly. It simply can not shoot at every target. Of-course you will need to spread out the spam so that you do not lose it in large chunks. And by the way Quanto, with a little work you can spread out that spam of yours to work just like you described it should .

I was doing some testing, and the peewees are fast enough. They can still run over Gols for great cost value, if they are spread out(I tested up to 6 gols and also mixed combinations of units with gols 50 peewees if well organized could do exceptionally against unsupported gols. Gols mixed with only thuds can still take heavy losses). For those that think the pyro is too slow, that may be true, but then again it is very effective in mass, but I would not use it on gols. It is not cost effective. The pyro is an ideal support/ protective unit for late game armies. Medium tanks are also not bad for killing gols, but it is rare that a good player would have gols unprotected.

Any how, the nature of the rocket kbots make them unpractical, other units can do the job, not always as well, but you better off worth the other units because the can serve other crucial jobs at the same time. Rocket kbots also seem to help in halting a peewee charge, due to their single powerful shot. As it stands, you can get untis that will get there faster, are better tanks and dmg dishers, or have better range.

[Thor]

rocket kbots are effective vs. reapers and medium tanks. Goliaths are a different story since they have way more aoe and range than normal tanks. Rocket kbot range is not much lower than a thud/hammer, they do full damage to armor, and they do all their damage in one shot. I don't know what you mean by turning them into arty units. How they do against goliaths is not representative of their anti-armor ability, as goliaths are a tech 2 unit whose primary use is killing massed kbot armies.

[123vtemp]

Also, I wonder if thuds do that much dmg to medium armor, stumpies appeared to do well, given the characteristics of the two units even before the last nerf. Still we use armor and not hp in NOTA and while the gol has no problem with killing a thd/hammer spam the arm greyhound takes too much dmg for it's class, and tho we must be careful about not overpowering the t1 reaper, it does die fairly quickly to a hammer spam, but perhaps that is natural. Still I have seen then in number, and they can not be over run with kbots when they reapers are spammed. It would take a while to get your M worth back, but the range allows reapers to dish out mdg effectively before a slow kbot spam can deal much dmg. This is not seen often, but it is nearly impenetrable when it happens, except nothing is invincible :p. There is always a way.

And I find the rocket kbot range not satisfactory for me to use it. I use my other necessary units to cover for it, granted they are not as good, but I can have more if I do not build rockos. That means that when I raid or attack I have a stronger force since I did not spend the M on rockos.

Thor, wouldn't you think it wise for us to have the NOTA wiki link in the channel topic?

[Defyant]

Is there a working AI that builds instead of doing nothing and shooting out there?
If so, can someone link me?
If it's been posted in this thread, sorry, but I can't be stuffed reading 33 pages.

[Thor]

RAI is the only one I know of that really works, but it has some problems, like not building enough units or building lots of useless units like mobile coastal defense guns.

[Defyant]

Ahh, thats fine, I want something easy to practice against before going online. I'm really bad.
Thanks.
I actually tried NTai, fiddled with it a bit and got it to play but a few minutes in and it crashes.

[Klopper]

KAI works too. Last time i tried it did claim map ressources consequently and put up good ground resistance, but didn't build any air or sea units.

[Defyant]

Hmm.. I can't find KAI. Mind posting a link? (i tried using the seach function. xD)

[smokingwreckage]

KAIK is the one you want, it's an update to KAI but by a different guy.... or something.


EDIT: that's all "as far as I know" "mileage may vary" etc.

http://www.darkstars.co.uk/downloads/vi ... OGGING.zip

[Totbuae]

RAI v0.600 puts up an OK fight but for some reason it fights a lot better on some particular maps (LLTAComplexV2 and magnetic_Lands_V1 are the ones I've found so far).

[Thor]

version 1.48 released! http://spring.jobjol.nl/1418


Here's teh changelog:

v 1.48

-Added "ScramJam" Electronic Scrambler Missile Launcher for CORE. It delivers a mild EMP blast over a wide area - useful for temporarily knocking out detection equipment on radar units
(cloaked unit detection remains disabled until all paralyze damage has worn off)
-Flashes, Instigators, and Panthers now have medium armor
-Flash and Instigator hitpoints reduced 25%; Panther lightning gun fires 30% slower, more expensive
-Hammer/Thud/Morty light plasma weapons now do 50% to medium armor and 30% to heavy; previously 66% medium and 40% heavy
-Light laser tower range increased from 560 to 600
-Mobile Artillery automatically switches trajectories; accuracy increased in high trajectory
-Hovertanks and Samurai now strafe sideways; Hovertanks can reverse, samurai cannot
-Medium Tank accuracy when moving increased
-Added a Scatter Button to quickly spread out units
-EMP area of effect increased
-Bertha accuracy decreased a bit
-Mobile flak buildtime decreased 20%; Samson/Slasher buildtime increased 10%
-Features no longer prevent units from shooting if they're in the line of fire
-Pressing Ctrl-C now selects the Command Center

[pintle]

version 1.48 released! -Mobile Artillery automatically switches trajectories; accuracy increased in high trajectory

Wait wut? Can you manually override this? I sure as hell dont want low traj arti switching to high traj when something comes into the edge of its range, or arti deciding to fire low trah despite there being a hill/bunch of things in between it and the target...

[Thor]

no, you can't, sorry. It won't try to shoot through hills or anything though.

[smokingwreckage]

Spacebugs Question: disclaimer: I am a llama. Me and some mates play CA chickens (Normal) and NOTA Spacebugs (Normal IIRC, we haven't played as much of it) on maps like Core Prime and Wide Open Combat. I'm sure real men only play on Painted Desert

In that context, the early Spacebugs game is great, punishing you mercilessly for any mistakes and demanding tight defences combined with mobile patrols/strike teams. However, As the game progresses through mid-late the threat tapers off. Tankers seem to spawn too infrequently and the Queen usually dies off-screen. This contrasts to CA where the waves can pretty much take you down at any stage of the game if you're not properly prepped for them, and the queen will usually ravage even the best-porc'ed base.

If you're interested in this kind of feedback, may I suggest that tankers spawn a lot more in the late game and that the queen be beefed up by multiples of her current hitpoints? Or is this inherent to a particular difficulty setting? I'd really like to see more tankers!

[123vtemp]

First off; you have decided to play on a metal map. Your most interesting NOTA games will be on low metal maps.

Second off; you need to play NOTA on every good map you can find. It is a tremendous relief that NOTA has not fallen tinto the repetetive map play with set tactics as we can see in BA DSD and TAB games.

Third; I hope you have the most improved versions. Type "/j #nota" when you are on Spring to join the NOTA channel where all the links are first provided.

Next, I find that CA chickens has a better feel. In CA waves consist on one or two unit types, letting you defeat the waves with solely the best unit for the specific wave. CA plays more with the "are you prepared for this next form of attack." Personally I think that style is a nicer play style.

Where as CA will have waves solely of arty units, zerg like spam, or an air wave, where you can pull back your forces that will not do well against that wave NOTA is different. In NOTA Spacebugs you get no break, the enemy will attack with a mixed army, creating a well rounded and thus dangerous strike force. Such opposition make an easy counter nearly out of the question. Personally I do not find the play exciting and full of adventure. The assaults are so fierce and relentless that an attempt to establish more outposts or strong holds do not yield grand or even profitable rewards, as they must be heavily porked if they are to survive.

The less metal you have to live with will make the game more challenging, and that is when it will create close calls where you can just barely hold on. It is in these games where it will me a challenge to pull of that grand multi K investment to take on the queen.

[Saktoth]

If you want to call thuds/hammers artillery, then yes, of course more than 50% of your army will be artillery since thuds/hammers are your bread and butter unit.

Well, I dont. You do.
Hammer - Light Artillery Kbot

I know this is a holdover from OTA (Its called that in OTA and even BA despite having less range than the rocko) but in NOTA it lives up to it name a little more. It doesnt have the range of -serious- artillery... it barely outrange an LLT actually.

Still, morty, lugar, hover arty etc are all real artillery and seem to feature heavily.

[123vtemp]

correction:
thuds and hammers do not out range llts in NOTA. It is also a costly choice to use thuds/hammers vs llts. That is what tanks do best, not slow and kbots with no armor or health.

btw I like to use peewees as my bread and butter. They have speed, dmg, and can out number your guns :p

[123vtemp]

This was a responce posted in the NOTA forums responding to the blanching between the medium tanks anti tank rocket kbots and the arty kbots:

I do not think the following has been throughly taken into account.

First I will have you know that I did not consider the thud/hammer to be well balanced.

You should know harsh op cries did not come from people who were use to the game design on NOTA and did not understand the game play. They are use to a BA unit balancing where kbots are only used when there are steep hills that veh have trouble on. In this manner BA give kbots an advantage not because of cost or damage but because veh simply can not attack a rocko sitting happily on a hill shooting away to his hearts content. In BA veh have all the best values, what they lack it the maneuverability of the kbots.

In NOTA Tanks have not been the cheapest unit for dps, but they have been the stronger unit that can make a powerful assault on a fortified position, and the unit that can get to key points with speed. On a decent sized NOTA map a veh assault force it more dangerous than a kbot force. A tank force can easily run around a kbot army and then strike the soft targets behind.

Where as in BA the tanks have been the center of the battle field NOTA has the units that can be created at a lower cost to field more dmg power at the sacrifice of durability and speed. This is very logical as it is what happens naturaly in the real world.

Kbot attributes gave them weaknesses that prevented tehm fromg being overpowered. As kbots start to mass in number and their dps rises so does their vulnerability to aoe attacks. Napalm or fighter bombers can scrap huge kbot investments. Late game t2 units poses attributes that the slow and lol ph t1 kbots have no hope to compete with. There were natural counters to kbots already built into the game. Hammers were called op because Players who thought the costly veh with speed and armer should instantly beat thuds were disappointed. NOTA has not been link BA there are much greater unit differences in NOTA than other mods. The elements that make units successful or unsuccessful are much greater. You can see here some of the common basics things which create unit uses and weaknesses: http://spring.clan-sy.com/wiki/NOTA_pla ... e_produced

In reality the stumpy was not designed to kill kbots! The weapon is not an AOE weapon and it does not fire in a mander to deliver the shot to a maneuverable unit as a kbot which could side step a great number of shots. While the stumpy is poor as shooting such things as a hammer, the hammer is a kbot that can side stem shots unlike vehicles. The thud is also designed for the chaotic battle field and has very good accuracy so that it can hit targets such as a peewee while the stumpy still is not capable, further more the stupy provides a much better target to hit. Next, if I do not play for armor, heath or speed I can get more guns for the price of the other. Once all this is in mind only a pitiful fool would say that thuds are op vs t1 tanks. Thuds are designed for the form of battle that the stumpies are not. Now it a t1 tank is suppose to be strong vs kbots a small weapon adjustments would make a tremendous difference. If a stumpy shot had just a little aoe, just enough to explode an area the size of a stumpy it wouild quickly dominate the battle field. for the cost of oen stumpy it could easily inflict dmg to kbot forces more than 2x the cost of the stumpy. This is because the aoe would allow the stumpy to attack multiple hammers every shot. this way 3 stumpies could go head to head with 12 tuhds and have a close fight that would be a 2:1 cost value tn the stumpy's favor and a 1:1 overall dmg value provided that each stumpy shot hit 4 thuds due to aoe. clumping is always a huge danger to any kbot and is why tanks to have a safety advantage purely because they each take up more space meaning that aoe shots cqn not hurt as many of them at one time. Do I think stumpies should have a high explosive shot? No that was not my idea, tho id did think that such a tank was a neat idea. The core field cannon could be called op due to this, but I prefer to call it efective at its job and not op because just as the hammers before, it to can be taken out very easily by another unit that does its own job well.

Speaking of units not being op so much as just doing their skill well brings the need to address the rocket kbots. This is a unit that poor survivability design and a weapon that does not deliver dmg effectively. because of the stats it is called anti armor, but how it performs on the battle field does not make it good at delivering its dmg. If we are trying to turn NOTA on its head we can give the rocket kbot more range than the thud as it is in BA. Oh! is that a reason people called the thud op? In BA the range makes rocket kbots a choicely unit. In NOTA the rocket kbots lake attributes that would make them good in some area. No speed, no armor, no superior range. For stats it does full dmg to all armor. but that does not mean you will be able to do so. You will almost never see it as a beneficial unit vs heavy armor as it will not live to come in range to take many shots if any
and to take out light armor it must first it the target. If the tanks are charging a peewee line should do better because rang will soon not matter and the peewees have excellent dps once they are close enough to shoot. Peewees will also serve multiple purposes where as rockets could do but one. The idea is old and simple; short range defends long range, and at the same time short range finds safety from enemies under the blanket of the long ranged units. The point is that rockos do not bring useful skills or abilities to the battle field. The units that do bing useful, or uniquely abilityes and skills to the field are the unit that are valuable.

The conclusions that should be made are that the medium tanks are not currently designed to effectively deliver dmg to maneuverable units on the battle field[such as kbots], that rocket kbots should be reworked if there is to be a significant anti armor class, and that thuds should be expected to be a sluggish source of dmg that is weak to dmg.