FSF stance on GPL issues.

[Das Bruce]

If we switch to lgpl doesn't this all become irrelevant?

[Neddie]

If we switch to lgpl doesn't this all become irrelevant?

Yes.

[Argh]

Yes. Then I don't have to deal with this every 4 months, with new variations on the same old arguments.

[EDIT]Removed much swearing. Sorry, it's 4 AM, and I woke up and wrote this whilst grumpy.[/EDIT]

[Argh]

I've had some sleep... here are my final thoughts on this.

It comes down to a straightforward question, in the end.

So long as a game developer does not distribute Spring with their game as a package, are they in violation of the GPL on the Spring game engine?

On this question, I will wait for an answer from the FSF until Monday, because I think we've established that we're not going to agree on that part, and Yuri's statement was a bit vague in regards to distribution. If "yes", then all I can do is to urge Spring's contributors to vote "yes" for LGPL as rapidly as possible.

[jK]

So long as a game developer does not distribute Spring with their game as a package, are they in violation of the GPL on the Spring game engine?

yup, it is what NV does with their kernel gfx drivers.
The user would break the GPL license then, what is allowed in many countries for private usage.

[Radtoo]

According to what we've read, even if all of these arguments were correct, I'd only be in violation if I distro'd Spring itself with my game.

So, as a Spring contributor... I could (theoretically, mind ye- I do not actually want to) sue you, for copyright violations and damages... if I accept your logic

These two quotes can also be directly combined. And that is the point for me.

As far as the BOS code goes, if it was merely a compatible implementation done from scratch, that's not a problem - and so far, I really have no reason to doubt that.

provably, have had access to the original source code

Only a few legislatures may bicker over this issue (but not be able to do much with it except prolong cases, apparently), the rest only wants to see how you actually did violate copyright. I don't think this is much of a problem.

If we switch to lgpl doesn't this all become irrelevant?

Yes.
It's quite different, but it would not cause me trouble. In that spirit, you have my permission to LGPLv3 "or later" on all (of the -again- very few) things I already, directly or through peer, contributed to the Spring repository.

[KDR_11k]

On this question, I will wait for an answer from the FSF until Monday

Forget it, they took several weeks to answer my first email (subsequent ones were faster).

[Argh]

[EDIT]Nevermind... waiting weeks for a response isn't really necessary.[/EDIT]

[Argh]

I've re-read all of Yoni's posts, and it's unequivocal, tbh. I don't think we're going to get anywhere new.

1. All COB and Lua is in a Spring game falls under the GPL. TDF and CEG files are considered to be "configuration scripts" and would not, apparently, qualify. Nor is our content (models, skins, sounds etc.) GPL.

2. Therefore, all *A games are voiding the GPL, and should not be distributed with this engine.

3. Spring is only legal if it distributes games that adhere to the GPL. The otacontent.sdz is not legal, and should not be distributed with the engine. And yes, the Installer certainly counts as distribution.

4. Websites hosting *A games are parties to a violation of the GPL, and should not do so.

5. All indie games should immediately add the appropriate License text from the GPL, should annotate their code with GPL notices and dates, and should not be distributed otherwise.

Anybody want clarification on why all of this is so... re-read [url=http://kdr_11k.from-hell.net/FSFconversation.txt]Yoni's responses to KDR[/url].



For now, I'm not planning on sending violation notices to the Spring project, the websites or the *A people. That'd be the "nuclear option", and I'd prefer to just ignore it for now. However, I will be talking to the Spring devs as a group about this problem.

I will review that policy, should any *A game attempt to use my source code, as their rights are all void.

I don't need a new license, basically. The *A games aren't legally entitled to jack squat, whether or not I am in violation... and I will, of course, be in compliance as of my public release. You wanted the GPL applied to games... well, ya got it, unless the engine's license changes. Now live with the consequences.

[imbaczek]

who said anybody wants "it"? I, for one, don't support GPL all and every one mod just because it runs on spring; I'd happily add an exception or relicense to LGPL if it was only my decision. Your post sounds like you're assuming too much.

[Argh]

This does not make me happy, either, but it's irrelevant. I'll follow the law here, I don't want to run an illegal project and run various risks. And no, I don't assume that anybody with a pulse is very happy about this.

However... this points out the need for a serious effort to get the engine re-licensed before the 0.77 release.

Yoni (the FSF person contacted by KDR_11k in regards to these issues) offered an out- exemptions could be put into Spring's license, specifically exempting game code files and other materials from the GPL. I think that is the way to go. It would scare people a lot less than an outright license change for the engine as a whole, and it would have the same real effect on game developers.

But... something has to give here.

Some games, like IW, cannot be GPL-compliant, I suspect. Their copyright situation is very, very messy.

The *As are probably never going to be able to prove to anybody's satisfaction that they aren't derivative works. They have not only Cavedog code, but other, third-party code involved. It'd be a nightmare.

[Peet]

who said anybody wants "it"? I, for one, don't support GPL all and every one mod just because it runs on spring; I'd happily add an exception or relicense to LGPL if it was only my decision. Your post sounds like you're assuming too much.

This. An LGPL switchover would be lovely, or a specific modification to spring's license allowing games to use other licenses.

For now, I'm not planning on sending violation notices to the Spring project, the websites or the *A people. That'd be the "nuclear option", and I'd prefer to just ignore it for now.

You don't have the right to do so in any case, only the engine's copyright holders (presumably everyone that has contributed engine code, but possibly only people who contributed to the cob and lua interfaces). Just because you ride in a taxi a few times doesn't mean you can make corporate decisions for the taxi company.

Some games, like IW, cannot be GPL-compliant, I suspect. Their copyright situation is very, very messy.

Uhm, didn't you just come to the conclusion that only cob and lua have to be GPL? That code isn't starwars intellectual property.

[Argh]

You don't have the right to do so in any case, only the engine's copyright holders

Yeah, that would be all contributors to the "work".

Moreover, I have contributed source code- I wrote the first prototype of what became ColorMap. Funny that you'd mention it, but I qualify, in both senses. And, since I know that you'll want to try and verify that... go here. This happened before you even arrived, Peet. For awhile, I seriously thought about becoming a regular dev., but I like making games more, tbh.

Uhm, didn't you just come to the conclusion that only cob and lua have to be GPL? That code isn't starwars intellectual property.

No, but it's the property of all of the SWTA guys, some of whom may be well-nigh impossible to track down. I'm telling ye- a real, verifiable situation where they'd be compliant is almost impossible.

And it's even worse for the *A guys, where they're using Caydr's work, which was based on others' work, which was based on Cavedog's.

So... yeah... enforcement would have terrible consequences. It's off the table, but I reserve the right to review that, in light of the circumstances.

[FLOZi]

but it's the property of all of the SWTA guys,

No, not really.

[KDR_11k]

However, be careful, I didn't look for the license version since I thought this is about parts that didn't change between v2 and 3, one critical quote came from the FAQ (which probably assumes v3).

This community has functioned without bothering with legal details for several years, if you're going to bring lawsuits into this consider yourself the subhuman scum of this community. Yes, that's a personal attack, I think anyone who wants to turn a collection of hobby projects like this into a legal minefield needs a punch in the face. There's not even money to be made here, Cavedog's successor might have a claim but one hobby project suing another over some retarded paper crap is just a fucking waste of time and money for everyone involved.

BTW, whining about GPL violations for *A mods is silly, they're already violating the copyrights of Cavedog and that's all there really is to know about their legality. Of course the distributor services shouldn't host them and running any of those P2P things with *A mods in your folder makes a user guilty of infringement too. If anyone here cared that much about infringement there would be a lot of things that would never have been done.

[FLOZi]

However, be careful, I didn't look for the license version since I thought this is about parts that didn't change between v2 and 3, one critical quote came from the FAQ (which probably assumes v3).

This community has functioned without bothering with legal details for several years, if you're going to bring lawsuits into this consider yourself the subhuman scum of this community. Yes, that's a personal attack, I think anyone who wants to turn a collection of hobby projects like this into a legal minefield needs a punch in the face. There's not even money to be made here, Cavedog's successor might have a claim but one hobby project suing another over some retarded paper crap is just a fucking waste of time and money for everyone involved.

BTW, whining about GPL violations for *A mods is silly, they're already violating the copyrights of Cavedog and that's all there really is to know about their legality. Of course the distributor services shouldn't host them and running any of those P2P things with *A mods in your folder makes a user guilty of infringement too. If anyone here cared that much about infringement there would be a lot of things that would never have been done.

Honestly, probably the only post in this thread worth reading.

[smoth]

hmm, I wonder why argh has to attack other projects. Why is it his business what other people do? Argh, got an answer on this one?

[Argh]

I wonder why argh has to attack other projects

Where's the attack on other projects?

They wanted the GPL... they've just fought this battle to a "successful" conclusion... it's not my problem, that they don't like the consequences. Meh, I've asked them, repeatedly, to drop this, because I knew where it would end. A better question is... why did they keep pursuing this?

No, not really.

Meh, I dunno- the source... may be legal, it's not derivative from anything LucasArts owns.

The content, absolutely not. But meh, we aren't talking about the legal status of the content.

This community has functioned without bothering with legal details for several years, if you're going to bring lawsuits into this consider yourself the subhuman scum of this community. Yes, that's a personal attack, I think anyone who wants to turn a collection of hobby projects like this into a legal minefield needs a punch in the face.

1. This community has had legal problems, forever. You should have seen the posts after the engine was first GPL'd.

2. I think it's sad, that you've won the argument and now you're angry because it wasn't what you thought you wanted, but meh, those are the breaks.

Vilifying me is pointless, and it has nothing to do with the facts, people. Nor does it bother me- I've been a de-facto pariah here for two years now. I'm used to it.

You wanted the GPL... you've fought me for it... now live with the results. Quit being such babies, when this is what you said you wanted.

Or change the engine license, so that I can do what I wanted to do in the first place, which is to give my work to the indie games. Which, in effect, is exactly what's going to happen here.

And I won't need to bother enforcing it, most likely.

So, what gives? Is letting me have my way, with the satisfaction of knowing it's entirely legal... really that horrible? It's like... letting me win this makes me a monster, when in fact, I never wanted to have to license stuff and enforce it, past making it (C) and requiring people to have my blessing, and provide credit... in the first place.

I mean... basically, I get what I wanted at the very start, here. Unless some new legal angle shows up, that's how this ends. So what? S'44, Gundam, E&E, etc. can all use all of my code, they just have to put GPL notices on their work... no biggie. Nobody's really hurt, unless they're a *A with pretensions of legality.

So, what's all the whining about, really? The only guys who got shafted are *A games that have always been illegal- the end result of this discussion is that I have the clear authority to tell them, "no". Which I will be doing if the engine license changes, anyhow.

[Peet]

They wanted the GPL... they've just fought this battle to a "successful" conclusion... it's not my problem, that they don't like the consequences. Meh, I've asked them, repeatedly, to drop this, because I knew where it would end. A better question is... why did they keep pursuing this?

It wasn't a fight for the gpl, it wasn't a fight to cause problems, it wasn't really a fight past convincing certain people to wake the hell up...the point of all this was to determine exactly what the legal standings of this community are.

Where's the attack on other projects?

You just explicitly stated that you have the power (which is hugely debatable in any case) to bring down essentially the whole community...essentially the equivalent of Iran phoning the whitehouse and saying "We teched to nukes lol".

[smoth]

Where's the attack on other projects?

You just explicitly stated that you have the power (which is hugely debatable in any case) to bring down essentially the whole community...essentially the equivalent of Iran phoning the whitehouse and saying "We teched to nukes lol".

^this

argh, worry about your own project.