Georgia

[SwiftSpear]

I also love the whole "flipflop" talk whenever a politician changes his plans, probably coming from the same people who think science is wrong because it changes its views according to new evidence instead of blindly adhering to one dogma.

The religious comment is a low blow... but I must say I've been confused by the same thing. Only stupid people's and lucky people's opinions don't change as they learn more facts. I could never figure out why people faulted John Kerry on that so much, he was easily one of the most brilliant people to ever be involved in American politics, and people discredited him for acting smart.

[KingRaptor]

There's a difference between changing your position because your previous one was wrong and changing it in order to gain political support (and, depending on who's listening, reverting to your original position).

[KDR_11k]

In a democracy "right" and "popular" are often the same thing since the point of a democracy is to make the government follow the will of the population.

[PicassoCT]

I love that pimp-my-Nation talk, earlier in the Thread.. there are some classics, that are really divine entertaiment..

-> "Our Country has over 4000 years of history"-> So what? 4000 Years of nearly nothing that happened, besides that humanity is completely new after three Generations passed..

-> "Our Country hoasts the most People.."
-> So what? They can barely count themselfes, write there names or do something else besides producing cloth,food&housing to exist on..

-> "We own the biggest Military on the Planet!"
-> Military has shown pretty useless in internal crisisvariations, beeing always read for a take-over, while showing funny weaknesses against third class Guerillia Combatants.

->And so on...fine thing that Power ain´t abstract & relativ..

[SwiftSpear]

There's a difference between changing your position because your previous one was wrong and changing it in order to gain political support (and, depending on who's listening, reverting to your original position).

There is, and apparently American voters don't know that difference.

[tombom]

They're losing viewers to liberal bias? Fox has some liberal bias? You're an idiot. I mean, really really stupid.

also lol @ "We are in a huge country, speaking 1 language"

yeah i bet you wish those damn dirty mexicans would all fuck off with their spanish talk!

in addition, i can label all american states on a map, and a reasonable amount of canada's

mccain has been far worse at changing his policies than obama, but obama has certainly done it, i don't think either are great

[Peet]

Canada does not have any states

[tombom]

Canada does not have any states

i know, was just easier

everybody knows what i'm talking about and i really meant province

[Relative]

Canada does not have any states

i know, was just easier

everybody knows what i'm talking about and i really meant province

A state and province are too very different things... one is a sovereign body and the other isn't.

[AF]

forb that state thing doesnt really work as most americans cant do it either.

However american affairs do feature on the news here. News channels show more about US politics than germany france spain and the rest of europe combined (unless a war springs up). We read all about your sub prime crisis and the media is particularly happy to report on your presidential runnings.

Sadly, themajority of what you hear is utter bullshit.

SubPrime was not a crisis. The democrats in an not so obvious way (i.e. Indirectly), forced mortgage companies to offer loans to people who were massively underqualified for those loans, and when people couldn't pay the loans, the the mortgage companies started going tits up. But now our idiots in congress decide that the responsible people who didn't take loans they couldn't possibly pay back in the first place, are responsible for the fucktards that couldn't pay back their loans, and we, the taxpayers have to bail them out. Liberalism at it's best.

OH MY FUCKING GOD

you really believe that? Do you realize it isn't just happening in the USA?! Its happening all over the world, its not the democrats, Id be scared if it were and they had wide reaching powers across the globe to nuke housing markets in other continents.

Go read up about the credit crisis and the credit bubble, and how the whole world not just america is affected.

And as for americans not knowing where most states are, please refer tot he american studies that claimed this. Or the countless youtube videos. European newspapers have a habit fo trekking off to american cities at peak time and asking US citizens where key countries are, such as korea, iraq, or canada. In a recent poll of 100 people in times square by the mirror, only 1 person got the location of iraq correct, and some people picked out cuba and mexico as iraq too.

[PicassoCT]

It s a nast habbit but i have to admit, i take part ins such tv-polls and try to show myself as stupid as possible. They take the most stupid fool of hundreds for free into Tv- you know..

Or studentpolls... or psychotest.. man you can mess around with them... and they will say thank you..


Bad Habbit...

[Sleksa]

Coming back to Georgia (the real one now ^^) I don't like lots of stuff that's going on in the media recently. There especially was very much contra Russia stuff with lots of it being plain wrong.

Yeah, our teacher started talking about "russia suddenly invading georgia" today at class ~,~

You know you get told to see how those evil russian fighters fly over georgian ground - in reality their are just georgian fighters.

Georgians dont really have that many fighters, and the ones you see in the youtube videos are russian.

HOWEVER you cant know WHERE those videos are filmed, nor do they ever show the target they attack (you just see a plane flying in the sky~~)

Then there also were some imo stupid "mistakes" like "Oh my good look at those russian tanks advancing town!" while they turn out to be georgian tanks - thinks like that just suck!

Yeah, Some news reporter had taken film shots of tshinkvali, and the newspaper had written "TOWN OF GORI IN RUINS, WATCH PICTURES!"

After all the facts I know (and most of them are not from polarising TV news) Georgia in fact started a war of aggression by attacking the capital Zchinvali with mortars and crossing the line of demarcation to South Ossetia with troops. It also seems to be obvious that Georgia also used a couple of mercenaries from other countries. There are convincing facts for this (at least currently) out there - just search for them...

And fired on russian peacekeepers.

Forboding Angel:

Georgia moved troops within it's own borders. Doing so is not an act of aggression towards Russia (so when I said that Georgia started it, I was misinformed).

it is not a act of agressionto fire on russian peacekeepers, bomb russian/ossetian citizens, and then moving into a country that has been independant for as long as georgia has?

i'd like to hear your reasoning behind this one

Saying that ossetia is a part of georgia is as valid as saying that finland is a part of sweden because we were once a part of sweden.

We've beaten them before(russians), and we'll do it again. However, I'm not real excited about the prospect of blundering into WWIII.

Perhaps the best quote from forboding yet. "OUR DICK IS ATLEAST THIS MUCH BIGGER THAN THEIRS"

Let's look at US military history after WWII

-vietnam : US retreated from the area and left their allies to vietcong hands

-Korea : US initially had success in the area by having superior numbers and better weapons, but after chinese "volunteers" came into the area, the war ended in a stalemate
(with some us general suggesting nukes into china)

-afghanistan : US military deploying hundreds of aircraft, tanks, apcs, vehicles against a SINGLE PERSON (bin laden) who is yet to be caught/killed? For a country that uses twice the money into guns than the rest of the world, i think killing a single person (castro, bin laden) shouldn't be that hard~~

- Iraq : after destroying the 40 year old armory of the iraqis, the US troops have been shooting everything that moves while bush declares "MISSION COMPLETE" and both future president candidates speak about moving out from iraq to leave the country into a civil war that was caused by US

care to tell us more fables and stories about US military success, maybe cuba's pigs bay?

Also im somewhat curious about when exactly has US "beaten" russia, i've never seen pics of US forces in moscow ~,~

[tombom]

The media is generally irresponsible and simply does not do any research at all. It's not surprising when they make simple errors and stick to one point of view without trying to provide any balance.

IMO it's not really fair to say "evil georgians enslaving ossetians" either; Russia hardly has an unblemished record in this regard, and the whole region is a horrible mess with a reasonably nasty history and a lot of different cultures.

[[Krogoth86]]

Well I have to say I currently do worry way more about Iran. Lately that excercise I told from ended but now things seem to get serious as quite an "armada" now is advancing Iran. Several carriers, subs, frigates and destroyers from the US, Britain, France and maybe even Japan now are moving towards Iran for real. They probably will do that "planned" blockade which under International War Law most certainly will be the same as starting a war. Iran now told of a possible surprise attack on them that might happen soon and started to send out 80 ships of their own to move into defensive positions...

If this blockade is going to happen we'll see a full scale war with Iran although I have some hope of this not going to happen. It also shows how much you can give about the mass media as this stuff isn't about some crazy speculation but based on several reports...

[Forboding Angel]

Wow so much. WIll take me a bit to sort through it all.

Something most of you probably don't know...

Only 6% of mortgage owners are defaulting on their loans in the entire US. That means that 94% of mortgage owners are being responsible and paying their mortgages.

Fannie mae, etc, are getting screwed because of their predatory lending practices (Which in layman's terms essentially means that they gave loans to people who could not possibly pay those loans back (hence why it is commonly referred to as a "Bubble")).

Speaking of predatory lending, got a personal story for you...

My school loan was 12,140 some odd bucks. 1 year deferred payments. That's all fine and good, over that first year I paid off 6 thousand of the loan, bringing my principal down to roughly 6 thousand dollars.

Imagine my surprise when I got the first month's bill and the interest was astronomical. Come to find out, sallie mae loan interest is charged on the entire loan amount.

Let me make this simple. If over the course of the first year, if I had paid down 12,139 and still owed 1 dollar, the interest on that payment would be interest upon the entire 12,140 dollar amount. Not on the principal (what is actually owed).

Needless to say, when I found this out I didn't pay it. I waited for 1 week. THe first 4.9% fixed rate credit card that came in the mail got my business. Paid off the sallie mae loan with it, and now I only pay 4.9% interest upon the principal amount that I owe, which is down to something like 1200 bucks.

[Sleksa]

Well I have to say I currently do worry way more about Iran. Lately that excercise I told from ended but now things seem to get serious as quite an "armada" now is advancing Iran. Several carriers, subs, frigates and destroyers from the US, Britain, France and maybe even Japan now are moving towards Iran for real. They probably will do that "planned" blockade which under International War Law most certainly will be the same as starting a war. Iran now told of a possible surprise attack on them that might happen soon and started to send out 80 ships of their own to move into defensive positions...

If this blockade is going to happen we'll see a full scale war with Iran although I have some hope of this not going to happen. It also shows how much you can give about the mass media as this stuff isn't about some crazy speculation but based on several reports...

according to finnish news, rice said that US might "block" russia (like cuba) if they dont move out from georgia/ossetia

i wonder how theyre going to block the biggest country in the world ~~

EDIT: or maybe russia will. . . block the US OUT FROM SPACE!!!

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/ ... index.html

[Peet]

It will be illegal to import russian cigars, obviously.

Canada does not have any states

i know, was just easier

everybody knows what i'm talking about and i really meant province

AND TERRITORIES TOO you nub

[manored]

2 oficial languages, 2 kinds of states... why is Canada so complicated? :)

If USA blocks Russia it will probally be by pressing dependant countries to stop comercy with it, surrounding it with armies sound like the kind of thing that would cause world war 3 :)

[PicassoCT]

Although US-Bashing is a nice Topicfiller, let´s be happy we can bash, because if Russia or China would be the Main WorldPower, this Hobby would disappear from the WorldwideWeb...

And Forb is posting Intersting Stuff- why not try for some intelligent Reading&Reply for once, instead off flaming on him (i know he explodes viewtifull )?
Those Banks and there Shareholder are in a fine Position, they can´t loose, the State has to save them, for the Economys sake, if the phail, so they never take a Risk even doing idiotic things (Lending Money to people who can´t hand it back). In other Words, those CreditInstitutions live on StateWellfare while druming the "State stay out of our Business" in Puplic. Great Game..

Forb try to understand, that most of the other democratic countrys discuss US Matter not to bash them, but because they are afraid US-Influence may shrink even further after this desastrous neoconservative 8 years.

Georgia vs Russia was a Bet, the Russians wanted a go, knowing that not before long, there would be US-Bases in the Country, the Georgian President knew they wanted a go (they gave out passports, hired mercenarys, the whole Groznyshit allover again), so he tried to get the US as Circumstance-forced-Allie in (to expand his country) by taking the Pipeline Hostage into this travesty of a War. Before Bush, before Iraq, the titanic Debt, the economic crisis, such a Step to do with a world Superpower would mean going the Iranian way- but today, you can do it and rest ashured the US are busy elsewhere. By overstretching forces and economy, you made the political world the bipolar structure it is...

Is cheap oil really worth to get played for a Fool everywhere else on the Planet?

[Forboding Angel]

Forb try to understand, that most of the other democratic countrys discuss US Matter not to bash them, but because they are afraid US-Influence may shrink even further after this desastrous neoconservative 8 years.

Let me point out something that needs to be made abundantly clear...

GEORGE BUSH IS NOT A CONSERVATIVE NO MATTER HOW BADLY HE WANTS TO WEAR THAT BLANKET!!!


I think you may have your terms mixed up picasso...

Picasso, conservatives have not been in power for the past 8 years... FAR from it. The repubicans (In case you don't know, a derogatory word for stupid republicans). These idiots, raised taxes, spent like drunk sailors, expanded government to epic proportions. All this is the exactl opposite of what a "Conservative" would do.

This is a good description of neocons, not written by me:

One of the things that distinguishes them is that, often (but certainly not always), they are conservatives by virtue of foreign policy alone, and are not necessarily social or economic conservatives. My dad, for example, considers himself something of a neo-con, and I understand he is strongly considering voting for Bush. However, he is actually quite leftist on damn-near every domestic policy issue, and aknowledges that whatever affiliation he has with the republican party is entirely about middle-east policy (he's pro-choice, pro-socialist health care, pro-gun control, indifferent on gay marriage, supports rolling back the tax cuts, etc.). In that sense, so called neocons are often (but not always) closer ideologically to hawkish liberals (as represented by, say, 'The New Republic') than to main-line republican conservatives, are represented by 'National Review.'

By this definition, the people that were in power were not neocons per se (as in, not as extreme as a true neocon), but acted a lot like neocons would.

A conservative is a completely different view. Small Government, Power of the individual, low taxation, low government intervention, heralding small business, Individualism (as opposed to Community-ism lolcommunism?)...

A Conservative cherishes and defends the founding documents of the American Republic ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

Accordingly, a Conservative defends free expression ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ in speech, the press, assembly ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ as guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution.

Additionally, a Conservative insists upon due process and protection of the individual from excesses and abuses of law enforcement. In particular, the Conservative opposes ├óÔé¼┼ôunreasonable searches and seizures├óÔé¼┬Ø (Fourth Amendment), double jeopardy, and self incrimination (Fifth Amendment), and ├óÔé¼┼ôcruel and unusual punishment (Eighth Amendment). In addition, the Conservative affirms ├óÔé¼┼ôthe right to a speedy and public trial├óÔé¼┬Ø and the right to confront accusers and ├óÔé¼┼ôto be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation├óÔé¼┬Ø (Sixth Amendment).

While respecting the doctrinal differences amongst religions, the Conservative endorses ├óÔé¼┼ôtraditional values├óÔé¼┬Ø that are taught by all the great world religions: tolerance, mercy, charity, compassion, moderation, peacemaking.

A Conservative believes in free markets and free enterprise

A Conservative believes in maximum personal liberty, consistent with ├óÔé¼┼ôlike liberty├óÔé¼┬Ø for all.

A Conservative is suspicious of ├óÔé¼┼ôbig government,├óÔé¼┬Ø and thus insists upon a separation of powers, a legislature that represents the interests of the public rather than campaign contributors, and restraint of government assaults upon personal liberties along the lines prescribed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Accordingly, a Conservative insists that it is not the business of government to promote particular religions, or to interfere in the private lives of citizens.

A conservative believes that it is the function of the courts to interpret established law with due regard for legal precedent (stare decisis). Nowhere in the Constitution or in the body of law is the Supreme Court entitled to appoint the President of the United States, nor is it permitted to make law from the bench and then announce arbitrarily that the decision of the Court "limited to the present circumstances," as was the case in Bush v. Gore (December 12, 2000).

A Conservative demands responsibility and accountability ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ of persons, of corporations, of institutions, and of government. There are no exceptions allowed for ├óÔé¼┼ôwell-placed individuals├óÔé¼┬Ø (e.g., Ken Lay, Dick Cheney), or firms (Enron and Global Crossing), or governing administrations (regarding, for example, access to information, fiscal responsibility, etc).

A Conservative opposes offensive and "pre-emptive" wars ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ a sentiment unequivocally endorsed by George Washington, who counseled against ├óÔé¼┼ôunusual antipathies├óÔé¼┬Ø toward other nations. This is a sentiment fully endorsed by Jefferson, and Madison, among other founders. This does not mean waiting for something to happen before doing something about it though. Obviously this would depend on the situation at hand.

A Conservative is time-conscious ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ of history and its bestowals, and of responsibility to future generations. Thus a Conservative will not, through budgetary deficits and through unsustainable environmental policies, mortgage and despoil the future for the generations that follow.

A Conservative cherishes the legacy of the past ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ in science, literature, the arts, and communal institutions -- and seeks to preserve them through education accessible to all, and through public facilities such as museums, concerts, libraries, and media. Thus a Conservative does not dismiss science and learning when ├óÔé¼┼ôinconvenient├óÔé¼┬Ø to special interests, or contrary to uninformed ├óÔé¼┼ôgut feeling.├óÔé¼┬Ø Moreover, a Conservative regards the burning of library records and the looting of museum collections, which, for example, took place in Baghdad in 2003, as catastrophic losses to civilization, and not merely "stuff" that "happens."

A Conservative respects language, as a means of encoding knowledge and conveying information, and thus refrains from distorting language in order to employ its as a tool of manipulation, mendacity and evasion.


I believe that a lot of you really don't truly understand conservative values. I hope this helps a bit. Most of the stuff is "Common Sense".

Edit: THere is a lot more than just this of course, but this is the meat of things.