Remove "eyes" as default for LuaWidgets

[Sertse]

Hey, even stuff as inane as "how long are mutes for" can be posted...might as well post this.

Anyways title is self explanatory; don't know if it is only a mod specific thing or not, but remove it.

To think the countless newbs get confused that the first thing then see when they start their first game...is a set of giant eyes following them around and blocking the whole screen.

Instructions are vague too. "f11 to open/close widget bar" when they prob have no idea what the widget bar is, nor are there any references closing eyes.

Wow, who of thought I would write so many sentences?

[pktm]

I think it should stay. It's an efficient way to make all ppl using the lua configuration, to let them know where they can turn things on and off.

[trepan]

A replacement is being worked on.

[Machiosabre]

why not just have text in a large font saying "F11 for lua settings" or something

[Satirik]

there is no point to enable that widget by default, and most people don't even know how to disable it, they hit F11 and then ? yeah they are not all used to computer things ... a good tutorial with a box plus text inside and a big close button would be a lot better

[De_little_Bubi]

yeah the eyes disturb newbs *confirm*

I think some more sentence about widget configuration under the "press f11 button" will do it :)

@the topic noobfriendly:
A lot of games have a little single player campagn where a nice sounding voice (or not^^) explain all shortcuts, unit commands and basic start strategys.
I dont know how realizable it is but i think this would be a good thing.
(And yes i think this suggestion made 1000 people before^^)

[imbaczek]

it gets the job done, that is makes newbs ask questions - and is annoying enough to actually make them go out of their way to disable it (and teach them something in the process.)

i agree that a positive-feedback online tutorial would be a better idea, though

[trepan]

The "Eyes" widget has been removed from SVN
(along with a few other undesirables).

[BrainDamage]

i think you removed a bit more than just the eyes widget ...

and NO, i won't use a pastebin, i want for people to read it from here

[20:55:10]* CommitBot ====> trepan committed revision 6109 <====
[20:55:10]* CommitBot Deleted:
[20:55:10]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/gui_eyes.lua
[20:55:10]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/gui_modeltest.lua
[20:55:10]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/gui_mousetrail.lua
[20:55:10]* CommitBot Modified:
[20:55:11]<CommitBot> trunk/installer/sections/luaui.nsh
[20:55:11]* CommitBot Log:
[20:55:11]<CommitBot> - removed unwanted widgets
[20:55:11]<CommitBot> .
[20:55:14]* BuildServ * New revision available (hit "!rebuild" in #buildserv to build it): r6109 (committed by trepan on 2008-07-05 22:57:08 +0200)
[20:57:00]* CommitBot ====> trepan committed revision 6110 <====
[20:57:00]* CommitBot Deleted:
[20:57:00]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/snd_chatterbox.lua
[20:57:01]* CommitBot Modified:
[20:57:01]<CommitBot> trunk/installer/sections/luaui.nsh
[20:57:02]* CommitBot Log:
[20:57:03]<CommitBot> - removed another useless widget
[20:57:03]<CommitBot> .
[20:57:04]* BuildServ * New revision available (hit "!rebuild" in #buildserv to build it): r6110 (committed by trepan on 2008-07-05 22:59:00 +0200)
[21:00:47]* CommitBot ====> trepan committed revision 6111 <====
[21:00:47]* CommitBot Deleted:
[21:00:47]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/gui_bigcursor.lua
[21:00:47]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/gui_minimap.lua
[21:00:48]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/ico_customicons.lua
[21:00:48]* CommitBot Modified:
[21:00:48]<CommitBot> trunk/installer/sections/luaui.nsh
[21:00:48]* CommitBot Log:
[21:00:49]<CommitBot> - knock off a few more
[21:00:49]<CommitBot> .
[21:00:50]* BuildServ * New revision available (hit "!rebuild" in #buildserv to build it): r6111 (committed by trepan on 2008-07-05 23:02:46 +0200)
[21:02:10]* CommitBot ====> trepan committed revision 6112 <====
[21:02:10]* CommitBot Deleted:
[21:02:11]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/cmd_circle.lua
[21:02:11]* CommitBot Modified:
[21:02:12]<CommitBot> trunk/installer/sections/luaui.nsh
[21:02:12]* CommitBot Log:
[21:02:12]<CommitBot> - who needs a posing widget?
[21:02:13]<CommitBot> .
[21:02:13]* BuildServ * New revision available (hit "!rebuild" in #buildserv to build it): r6112 (committed by trepan on 2008-07-05 23:04:10 +0200)
[21:14:37]<MelBot> (NOiZE ) User map d -> Titan : http://tinyurl.com/69zg7a
[21:14:40]<MelBot> (NOiZE ) Games and -> Balanced Annihilation V6.31 : http://tinyurl.com/5hqgjf
[21:15:26]* CommitBot ====> trepan committed revision 6113 <====
[21:15:26]* CommitBot Deleted:
[21:15:26]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/camera_ctrl.lua
[21:15:26]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/cmd_factoryclear.lua
[21:15:27]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/cmd_givemobile.lua
[21:15:27]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/cmd_savequeue.lua
[21:15:27]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/dbg_debug.lua
[21:15:27]* CommitBot Modified:
[21:15:27]<CommitBot> trunk/installer/sections/luaui.nsh
[21:15:27]* CommitBot Log:
[21:15:27]<CommitBot> - removed some widgets which might lead to confusion (non-gui types)
[21:15:27]<CommitBot> .
[21:15:32]* BuildServ * New revision available (hit "!rebuild" in #buildserv to build it): r6113 (committed by trepan on 2008-07-05 23:17:25 +0200)
[21:17:31]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> dbg_debug?
[21:17:55]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> we need a lua repo
[21:29:37]<MelBot> (iamacup ) General di -> The life and lies of AF : http://tinyurl.com/6hlr7k
[21:30:04]* CommitBot ====> trepan committed revision 6114 <====
[21:30:05]* CommitBot Modified:
[21:30:05]<CommitBot> trunk/installer/sections/luaui.nsh
[21:30:05]* CommitBot Log:
[21:30:05]<CommitBot> - not present, not installed
[21:30:05]<CommitBot> .
[21:30:07]* BuildServ * New revision available (hit "!rebuild" in #buildserv to build it): r6114 (committed by trepan on 2008-07-05 23:32:03 +0200)
[21:35:36]* CommitBot ====> trepan committed revision 6115 <====
[21:35:37]* CommitBot Deleted:
[21:35:37]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/cmd_doline.lua
[21:35:37]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/hook_copyqueue.lua
[21:35:37]* CommitBot Modified:
[21:35:37]<CommitBot> trunk/installer/sections/luaui.nsh
[21:35:37]* CommitBot Log:
[21:35:37]<CommitBot> - more 'confusing' widgets
[21:35:38]<CommitBot> .
[21:35:39]* BuildServ * New revision available (hit "!rebuild" in #buildserv to build it): r6115 (committed by trepan on 2008-07-05 23:37:35 +0200)
[21:36:02]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> not doline!
[21:36:40]<trepan> requires typing, not good for noobs
[21:36:47]<[[ITER]]Satirik> pfff
[21:36:57]<[[ITER]]Satirik> trepan you're acting like a kid
[21:37:08]<[[ITER]]Satirik> the eye widget
[21:37:08]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> what.
[21:37:12]<[[ITER]]Satirik> is agressive for noobs
[21:37:16]<trepan> it's gone
[21:37:19]<[[ITER]]Satirik> it doesn't mean you have to delete everything
[21:37:19]<trepan> no longer an issue
[21:37:19]<BrainDamage> i use the custom icons widget T_T
[21:37:34]<[[ITER]]Satirik> disabling it by default it enough
[21:37:41]<[[ITER]]Satirik> or make it more simple
[21:37:44]<[[ITER]]Satirik> nothing moving
[21:38:03]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> disabling what, eyes?
[21:38:04]<[[ITER]]Satirik> it's harder to read when it's moving
[21:38:13]<trepan> but removing it cleans up SVN from unneeded chaff
[21:38:18]<[[ITER]]Satirik> pfff
[21:38:22]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> once you know how to turn eyes off you're done with it forever
[21:38:24]<trepan> it's really not such a big thing to removing this junk
[21:38:33]<trepan> *remove
[21:38:38]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> until you get tired/high and feel like a shiny thing
[21:39:15]<[[ITER]]Satirik> [21:36:24] <[7uP]lurker[KoT]> not doline!
[21:39:24]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> okay
[21:39:30]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> that one has no need to be off
[21:39:36]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> it's either in or out, really
[21:39:37]<MelBot> (AF ) General di -> The life and lies of AF : http://tinyurl.com/5qavwq
[21:39:45]<BrainDamage> as well as custom icons!
[21:39:48]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> since it has no visible function
[21:40:20]<trepan> anyone actually use factory_guard?
[21:40:34]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> I turn it on and off
[21:40:42]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> I need to bind a key to it...
[21:41:00]<trepan> then it should probably be replaced by something better
[21:41:04]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> nice to mix cons into the build order
[21:41:19]<[[ITER]]Satirik> trepan maybe you could move them to an Example folder
[21:41:25]<[[ITER]]Satirik> for people wanting to learn using lua
[21:41:36]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> hmm, now you've got me thinking about desired cons...
[21:41:58]<trepan> [[ITER]]Satirik: na, there's the Wiki, there's CA -- plenty of resources
[21:42:03]<[LCC]jK> lol noobs are even to lazy to check the widgets they are using when they want to start learning lua
[21:42:04]<trepan> and 16 widgets left ...
[21:42:22]<[[ITER]]Satirik> you're the boss
[21:42:49]<BrainDamage> [LCC]jK: i do read my widgets as reference when i need to tweak stuff
[21:42:54]* CommitBot ====> trepan committed revision 6116 <====
[21:42:54]* CommitBot Modified:
[21:42:54]<CommitBot> trunk/installer/sections/luaui.nsh
[21:42:54]* CommitBot Log:
[21:42:55]<CommitBot> - re-added the missing 'unit_factory_guard.lua'
[21:42:55]<CommitBot> .
[21:42:57]* BuildServ * New revision available (hit "!rebuild" in #buildserv to build it): r6116 (committed by trepan on 2008-07-05 23:44:54 +0200)
[21:43:42]<BrainDamage> you just cannot generalize
[21:46:36]* CommitBot ====> trepan committed revision 6117 <====
[21:46:37]* CommitBot Deleted:
[21:46:37]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/gui_game_setup.lua
[21:46:37]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/gui_loadscreens.lua
[21:46:37]* CommitBot Log:
[21:46:38]<CommitBot> - these 2 weren't even being installed ...
[21:46:38]<CommitBot> .
[21:46:41]* BuildServ * New revision available (hit "!rebuild" in #buildserv to build it): r6117 (committed by trepan on 2008-07-05 23:48:37 +0200)
[21:47:10]<trepan> https://taspring.clan-sy.com/svn/spring ... I/Widgets/ there's the 16
[21:47:19]<trepan> fps / clock / tooltip -- any real use?
[21:47:37]<trepan> nope ... done
[21:48:03]<BrainDamage> i do use the loadscreens!
[21:48:16]<trepan> wasn't even being installed
[21:48:17]<BrainDamage> when i check a new mod / version
[21:48:28]<BrainDamage> iso?
[21:48:33]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> my god... iceui is insane
[21:48:45]<BrainDamage> so? it's not like i can't fetch spring's svn
[21:48:50]<BrainDamage> i have a local copy
[21:49:04]<trepan> so does CA
[21:49:25]<BrainDamage> i always knew that rendundancy storage is a good thing
[21:49:37]<MelBot> (Crayfish ) Games and -> Complete Annihilation News : http://tinyurl.com/5alvvw
[21:49:46]* CommitBot ====> trepan committed revision 6118 <====
[21:49:46]* CommitBot Deleted:
[21:49:46]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/gui_clock.lua
[21:49:47]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/gui_fps.lua
[21:49:47]<CommitBot> trunk/game/LuaUI/Widgets/gui_tooltip.lua
[21:49:47]* CommitBot Modified:
[21:49:47]<CommitBot> trunk/installer/sections/luaui.nsh
[21:49:48]* CommitBot Log:
[21:49:48]<CommitBot> - the engine ones are good enough
[21:49:48]<CommitBot> .
[21:49:50]<BrainDamage> since when it become a bad practice?
[21:49:51]* BuildServ * New revision available (hit "!rebuild" in #buildserv to build it): r6118 (committed by trepan on 2008-07-05 23:51:44 +0200)
[21:50:03]<BrainDamage> engine ones are crap
[21:50:09]<BrainDamage> you cannot change size nor position
[21:50:14]<trepan> BrainDamage: that's why I said the uncommitted stuff was more important
[21:51:53]<trepan> lucky 13 left - a reasonable set
[21:53:20]<BrainDamage> since when it's the number that matters?
[21:53:57]<trepan> too many options -- confusing
[21:54:43]<BrainDamage> TBH there are other things which could make confusion ...
[21:55:49]<trepan> remove them too
[21:56:08]<BrainDamage> no, it's a lack, not an excess
[21:56:25]<trepan> find ctrlpanel.txt / cmdcolors.txt confusing?
[21:56:31]<BrainDamage> NO
[21:56:38]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> oh god yes
[21:56:46]<trepan> there ya go
[21:56:48]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> confusing in a rewrite way, of course
[21:56:51]<trepan> needless options
[21:56:55]<trepan> poof
[21:56:58]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> what?
[21:57:06]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> ctrlpanel isn't at all needless
[21:57:09]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> just arcane
[21:57:18]<BrainDamage> don't you see? he's removing everything out of mood swing
[21:57:29]<BrainDamage> and i have yet to understand why
[21:57:45]<trepan> LayoutButtons -- now there's a confusing cat
[21:57:46]<BrainDamage> and it's not like i see a better replacement
[21:58:01]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> working on replacement
[22:04:34]<trepan> of course that brings the real question -- mod vs. user
[22:04:37]<MelBot> (smartie ) Games and -> NOTA 1.45 : http://tinyurl.com/5d7hqu
[22:04:41]<MelBot> (Agon ) AI -> Interface Redesign : http://tinyurl.com/6q6qzg
[22:05:17]<trepan> which in turn begs the question: should there be a LuaUI, or should it be put under mod control (most of the code is already moved over)
[22:05:40]<[7uP]lurker[KoT]> mhm
[22:05:55]<BrainDamage> you can't go back
[22:06:09]<trepan> heh
[22:06:17]<BrainDamage> remove luaui and people might fork the project
[22:06:32]<trepan> fork it
[22:07:06]<trepan> (it's always fun to say that in context)
[22:07:25]<BrainDamage> fun?
[22:09:45]<BrainDamage> i don't see why the change, without even an attempt of discussion
[22:10:11]<BrainDamage> or asking what would the users want

[hughperkins]

The "Eyes" widget has been removed from SVN
(along with a few other undesirables).

Excellent! Things are confusing for newbies anyway, without having the eyes appear!

You know, on the topic of "Its good for newbies if....", it'd be kindof cool to have a help window, with answers to common questions, like how to scroll and stuff

Course, I am also too lazy to add that

[ZellSF]

I think removing widgets that really aren't for end users in the first places makes sense, just upload them to one of the file hosting sites.

bigcursor and mousetrails are both UI mods that makes sense to end users though. Their removal is rather confusing.

I also use customicons, though I can see why that was removed.

[Argh]

I'm strongly in favor of making the entire UI through /LuaUI, and no more hardcoded UI stuff, period.

As for Eyes... there should be something like it, just more professional looking and structured, to help new users get acquainted with the UI controls and using Widgets.

What we really need is a quick-start tutorial running there, teaching people the basics- right-click to make things happen, left-click to select, see how your mouse changes with context, here's how to control the camera, etc., etc.,- the "stupid" stuff that is in practically ever commercial game's tutorial. Because, let's face it, UIs may be very intuitive, but some things are always more intuitive than others.

Meh. Maybe it's time to write a mini-game that's built for a tutorial environment- not a serious RTS, just a basic thing to teach people how to interact with a typical Spring game- stuff like, "hey, the screen changed colors, I'm seeing the metalmap / pathfinder / LOS" or "this is a factory, typically this can do the following context-sensitive things" etc., etc., which is all somewhat poorly explained in what little material we have.

If it was cleanly written (codewise), it'd also provide a working skeleton for providing offbeat game designs with a standard to follow, if they wanted users to have a similar experience but teach them the ropes. Maybe I'll dig up some time for this, after I've gotten the latest beta done for P.U.R.E.- it's not like it'll take any serious time on art assets or whatever...

[Warlord Zsinj]

Just use nanoblobs?

[rattle]

A replacement is being worked on.

/stab?

[el_matarife]

Anyone who thinks eyes should be on by default really needs to set some random new player up on Spring with Lua turned on and then be forced to explain exactly why there's giant googly eyes on their screen. That's the kind of sheer user hostility Spring has in some areas that can cause someone to uninstall within 10 minutes and start declaring "Spring sucks" all over the web.

Seriously though name me another recent RTS that does something like eyes and I'll be surprised. If you think users need a tutorial then make a tutorial script and make it an icon in their Start Menu or something.

[Argh]

Knowing Trepan's sarcastic vein of humor, I think Eyes was always supposed to be a goad to make something decent to replace it

[Pressure Line]

Knowing Trepan's sarcastic vein of humor, I think Eyes was always supposed to be a goad to make something decent to replace it

Most likely. The only time its really a problem is when there are a lot of mod-included widgets, and you have to scroll down using the invisible scroll buttons (and theres no way to tell if theres more to the list than what you can see unless you use them)

I mean really, if you're that stupid that you cant work out the f11 menu basics i think that the eyes widget is the least of your problems.

[clumsy_culhane]

Double post ftl?

More on topic, I think the removal of eyes is good, bigcursor, not so much. A number of people still use it, and i used it when i was starting out spring as a noob..

[Manoa]

yeah, to remove eyes and all else that trepan has removed was good, but I have gone a bit further and made this instead: http://jobjol.nl/1115 which I think more represents the professional RTS category

I think trepan did it for proof of concept and potential, and that he certainly did with eyes, now that it's done with more useful things can be made with it

[Forboding Angel]

Umm yeah,... pretty soon you're not going to have a choice whether or not you want to use lua.

Christ. Go play fucking ota.