The big post about campaigns

[BrainDamage]

I might add that while incomplete (IE integration, no linux support), Satirik's front-end is a great step forward. It offers any campaign development project an organizational tool and bridges the gap between generation and continuity.

please read the thread before making such comments, nowhere there gets mentioned IE or linux or windows, what we're discussing is how the campaign format should be from a mod side of view, linear progression vs multiple branches, how the "next mission" should be picked, ecc

every lobby will do it's own implementation of the standard once it will be decided ( it's NOT yet decided), so if someone has a better system to create a mission flow, please post it or ciriticize the current proposals

also, the choice for HTML files for briefings / infos is not definitive as well, again if you have a better idea please post about it

[Neddie]

I did read the thread, Brain, I was responding to his prototype introduction. You must note relevant limitations when you offer an option. With it you can test campaigns generated, but not distribute them effectively for play as of yet.

Do not patronize me.

[Fatal]

As mentioned before, Osiris and I have begun on making a tutorial map, as was suggested. Here's how we're planning it to go, a crude sketch included:


(the dark areas are actually mountains. Also, the hmap is nearing completion as we speak)


(2008-07-14 16:32:46) Fatal: 1 is where the player starts
(2008-07-14 16:32:56) Fatal: first he will be instructed on how the basic economy works
(2008-07-14 16:33:20) Fatal: he then builds some metal extractors and solar panels and ultimately a factory
(2008-07-14 16:33:33) Fatal: then he is instructed to attack a light enemy position, 3
(2008-07-14 16:33:47) Fatal: after that 4, but woe!
(2008-07-14 16:33:52) Fatal: the enemy has fortifications there!
(2008-07-14 16:34:05) Fatal: gaters get slaughtered!
(2008-07-14 16:34:12) Fatal: so it's shipyard time
(2008-07-14 16:34:24) Osiris Kalev: And transport units around the fortifactions?
(2008-07-14 16:34:29) Fatal: no, not transport
(2008-07-14 16:34:47) Fatal: the player must first send subs to destroy an enemy battleship guarding the water path
(2008-07-14 16:34:54) Fatal: (behind the cliff)
(2008-07-14 16:34:57) Osiris Kalev: Heh
(2008-07-14 16:35:18) Fatal: after that, the player sends enforcers to 2, from which he can destroy enemy fortifications at 4
(2008-07-14 16:35:44) Fatal: or, I'm not sure yet, the ships could be used to destroy enemy power structures, effectively disabling the lasers
(2008-07-14 16:36:02) Fatal: either way, 4 is done for
(2008-07-14 16:36:06) Osiris Kalev: Oh, like destory their energy storage
(2008-07-14 16:36:08) Osiris Kalev: *?
(2008-07-14 16:36:12) Fatal: yes and solar panels
(2008-07-14 16:36:16) Fatal: so the lasers don't get energy
(2008-07-14 16:36:19) Osiris Kalev: Ya
(2008-07-14 16:36:33) Fatal: so, now the light land artillery units are unlocked
(2008-07-14 16:37:00) Fatal: and the player may attack 5, which is similarly fortified, but no water passage this time
(2008-07-14 16:37:12) Fatal: the player must basically repeat what he just did, only with land artillery this time
(2008-07-14 16:37:20) Osiris Kalev: Hokayj
(2008-07-14 16:37:43) Fatal: then he is instructed to set a foothold at 6
(2008-07-14 16:38:04) Fatal: there's a natural defence location, to which he must build some towers
(2008-07-14 16:38:27) Fatal: then, after that is done, the enemy launches a small attack, which is then crushed
(2008-07-14 16:38:38) Fatal: time to advance to 7!
(2008-07-14 16:38:54) Fatal: alas, advancing further from that point is next to impossible!
(2008-07-14 16:39:15) Fatal: at 8, there is a bertha or two, with line of fire into the narrow valley
(2008-07-14 16:39:43) Fatal: any land units trying to push through are shredded to pieces!
(2008-07-14 16:39:49) Fatal: yet there is still hope!
(2008-07-14 16:40:01) Fatal: a squadron of bombers has just arrived
(2008-07-14 16:40:24) Fatal: with the aid of these bombers, the berthas are quickly terminated
(2008-07-14 16:40:49) Fatal: however, attacking the final base with bombers is impossible as there is heavy AA there
(2008-07-14 16:41:00) Fatal: so the aircraft are only used to take out the long range artillery
(2008-07-14 16:41:04) Osiris Kalev: Ah ok
(2008-07-14 16:41:37) Fatal: also, even now a land attack seems impossible, even without the berthas, the enemy still has a heavy footing in its base
(2008-07-14 16:41:49) Fatal: doomsday machines hold the line
(2008-07-14 16:42:12) Fatal: but what is this? A new technology? Yes! Berthas have just been made available for the player as well!
(2008-07-14 16:42:29) Fatal: construct one at 7 to pound the enemy defences to tiny bits
(2008-07-14 16:42:38) Fatal: once that is done, it's time for the final push
(2008-07-14 16:43:25) Fatal: a coordinated attack is taught to the player, he must send heavy land artilleries (which have just been unlocked) to 10, and rain fire upon the enemy
(2008-07-14 16:43:43) Fatal: while the bertha fires its own stuff onto the enemy
(2008-07-14 16:44:01) Fatal: the player must then, as a sensible person, stop the artillery fire as his own forces enter the fray
(2008-07-14 16:44:12) Fatal: thus not to destroy his own tanks and kbots
(2008-07-14 16:44:47) Fatal: also the player is instructed to take out the enemy AA quickly, so that gunships can come and help with the attack
(2008-07-14 16:45:09) Fatal: once the enemy main base has been destroyed, the tutorial is complete


So far 4 people, Osiris included, have liked this idea.

This post was kind of meant for a status update, to let you know that we are serious about this, but also to ask what you think about this tutorial map plan. I think it covers the most important concepts regarding TA.

[Machiosabre]

you sent the gators into the alley...

...a Manticore appears!

play again?

[Neddie]

Manticore is anti-air exclusive.

[Acidd_UK]

This is a great idea.

Also, some extra topics that you can brush on (you may have thought of this already and also I know it cant get too complex), but reclaim and rezzing is a very important part of the game and I think should be mentioned somewehre. Maybe if the berthas were more between 7 and 8 they could be bombed and then rezzed?! Filthy :)

[Fatal]

Acidd, I like that idea very much! Hit two manticores with one gater!

In fact, we haven't discussed the very details yet with Osiris. There could be a part where you can capture a geothermal plant to give some extra energy. Of course some these would have to be optional, as the player may accidentally destroy the rubble or the capture target, especially since, at least to my knowledge, you can't capture friendly targets. There will of course be instructions on how to use radars and all that. Even spy units could be included as target spotters for the bertha.

[Hoi]

this is good, and to make sure its actually played you should get a message after installing do you want to play the introduction campaing?

[Machiosabre]

Manticore is anti-air exclusive.

http://www.atrianglemorning.com/games/flash.php

[Fatal]

this is good, and to make sure its actually played you should get a message after installing do you want to play the introduction campaing?

Alas, we are not in the position to make this happen, nor would we have the actual skills to modify the installer.

That is why I must stress out the importance of team work, which unfortunately doesn't seem to be held in high regard on these forums.

[Hoi]

this is good, and to make sure its actually played you should get a message after installing do you want to play the introduction campaing?

Alas, we are not in the position to make this happen, nor would we have the actual skills to modify the installer.

That is why I must stress out the importance of team work, which unfortunately doesn't seem to be held in high regard on these forums.

i didnt mean that you should do this, but the devs, i hope this gets implented in 0.77! and some more teamwork would help yes

[Sleksa]

Manticore is anti-air exclusive.

WRONG!

The Manticore (Missile Tank) is a mobile missile launcher platform that can provide air defense with radar guided missiles and fire unguided rockets in an artillery role. Massed numbers of rocket armed Manticores can deliver a greater amount of bombardment fire than a larger group of Basilisks in a shorter amount of time, although the reload time is much longer.

source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Manticore

[Forboding Angel]

I TEK 2 GHEYTOR!

[Fatal]

I'm pleased to let you know that I have just gotten my first ever hmap into its beta phase. I know it's lame to say so about your own works, but I think this looks good! The "only" part I cheated was in the very end when I used the erosion tool to give the map a hard and rugged look. I swear it looked good even without it. ;D



Also note that I haven't seen this inside Spring yet, but in MapDesigner, it looks pretty alright.


One more thing: What's up with MapDesigner viewing things mirrored? I got confused at first before I realised what was going on.

[Beherith]

Very nice heightmap, I noticed a touch of Bryce in the erosion :)
But beware:
If you use lowpass filter (-l) when compiling, you will lose most of the fine erosion. If you dont, and the heightmap is not 16bit, then it will look terraced and not pretty ingame.
Anyhow, if you decide to go 16 bit (or stick to 8bit without -l), your gonna have pathing troubles, as kbots will be able to pass up on those tiny erosion channels. (for an example see the top right high ground on the map kappa basin)

Good luck with the mission!

[Fatal]

Very nice heightmap, I noticed a touch of Bryce in the erosion :)
But beware:
If you use lowpass filter (-l) when compiling, you will lose most of the fine erosion. If you dont, and the heightmap is not 16bit, then it will look terraced and not pretty ingame.
Anyhow, if you decide to go 16 bit (or stick to 8bit without -l), your gonna have pathing troubles, as kbots will be able to pass up on those tiny erosion channels. (for an example see the top right high ground on the map kappa basin)

Good luck with the mission!

Thanks for the advice! I actually used some erosion program that I found on Spring File Universe. It does nothing but add erosion with a few variables that alter the end result.

As for your pathing info, that is very helpful to know. I think I've seen this "terraced" terrain in the Aavikko map, and I agree, it is not pretty. Osiris and I will experiment with various compiling methods later on. It wouldn't be a great loss if some of the erosion were lost, as I mostly used that one to cover some flat surfaces (mostly on the hills) that would've looked ugly otherwise.

How bad are the pathing problems for kbots in the cases you mention? Is there a chance that it all magically works fine, or is it certain that kbots are going to take a shit on the birthday cake?

Either way, it's not a big deal, as long as it doesn't look totally noobish, I'm happy. And looks like I got lucky on my first go as far as quality is concerned.

[Neddie]

Manticore is anti-air exclusive.

WRONG!

The Manticore (Missile Tank) is a mobile missile launcher platform that can provide air defense with radar guided missiles and fire unguided rockets in an artillery role. Massed numbers of rocket armed Manticores can deliver a greater amount of bombardment fire than a larger group of Basilisks in a shorter amount of time, although the reload time is much longer.

source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Manticore

I was talking about the Manticore Advanced AA Kbot, so nice try.

[rattle]

WRONG!

[Forboding Angel]

Very nice heightmap, I noticed a touch of Bryce in the erosion :)
But beware:
If you use lowpass filter (-l) when compiling, you will lose most of the fine erosion. If you dont, and the heightmap is not 16bit, then it will look terraced and not pretty ingame.
Anyhow, if you decide to go 16 bit (or stick to 8bit without -l), your gonna have pathing troubles, as kbots will be able to pass up on those tiny erosion channels. (for an example see the top right high ground on the map kappa basin)

Good luck with the mission!

Behe, this simply isn't true, I don't know where you keep getting this from. Yes, lowpass tones it down a bit, but ONLY a little bit. Also, your texture should reflect what you want users to see, cause at that point your heightmap can be a bit toned down and actually be better to work with (Edit: In SMF).

A rough heightmap isn't exactly an idea situation, which is one reason so many of us have used lowpass for so long. Even with a 16 or 32 bit heightmap, the roughness of it isn't necessarily a good thing when you are dealing with large height differences (say over 500 or so).

Instead you are issuing a blanket statement which while not out and out false, is VERY misleading and makes it sound much more dire than it really is.

If you are losing massive amounts of detail in your heightmap at 8bit, then quite honestly, ur doin it rong.

[Forboding Angel]

Very nice heightmap, I noticed a touch of Bryce in the erosion :)
But beware:
If you use lowpass filter (-l) when compiling, you will lose most of the fine erosion. If you dont, and the heightmap is not 16bit, then it will look terraced and not pretty ingame.
Anyhow, if you decide to go 16 bit (or stick to 8bit without -l), your gonna have pathing troubles, as kbots will be able to pass up on those tiny erosion channels. (for an example see the top right high ground on the map kappa basin)

Good luck with the mission!

Thanks for the advice! I actually used some erosion program that I found on Spring File Universe. It does nothing but add erosion with a few variables that alter the end result.

As for your pathing info, that is very helpful to know. I think I've seen this "terraced" terrain in the Aavikko map, and I agree, it is not pretty. Osiris and I will experiment with various compiling methods later on. It wouldn't be a great loss if some of the erosion were lost, as I mostly used that one to cover some flat surfaces (mostly on the hills) that would've looked ugly otherwise.

How bad are the pathing problems for kbots in the cases you mention? Is there a chance that it all magically works fine, or is it certain that kbots are going to take a shit on the birthday cake?

Either way, it's not a big deal, as long as it doesn't look totally noobish, I'm happy. And looks like I got lucky on my first go as far as quality is concerned.

The terracing is on the texture, as a result of the heightmap. on the heightmap the terraces are large enough to actually get noticed. Texturing has everything to do with using a 16 or 32 bit heightmap (so that terracing does not happen) whereas when compiling, 8bit + lowpass works quite nicely.

If the terracing on a 16 or 32bit heightmap is noticeable when texturing, you're either A: doin it rong, or B: Intended for that to happen.

Example incoming...

Perfect example, this is aaviko's (or however you spell it) heightmap.
http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/9415/aavikoqz1.png

The terracing is part of the heightmap, and it's obvious that that terracing was there when it was rendered. SO either the maker was A: Doin it rong or B: Intended for that to happen. The terracing is far too amatuerish to have been intentional. As any mapmaker should know, you simply do not run a texture through a generator if your heightmap has obvious defects.

@behe, you keep talking about losing detail, however, I have yet to see it in my own personal experience. I complained about it when I was a mapper newbie, but I was doin it rong and didn't know any better.