New Mod

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 09 Sep 2005, 04:00

I am currently working on a new mod that balances OTA to the spring engine by only fiddling with cost and buildtime, and that deletes all units that cannot be made useful using this (such as probably most seaplanes and hovercraft.)

My goal is to make OTA what it was meant to be by Chris Taylor

The problem is, most of what I know of OTA I picked up from strategy guides, and they don't say why most units are worthless, just that they are and that I shouldn't use them.

So I will need input.

here is what I have so far (and it is subject to change):

CORE Slasher: no change (it was balanced pretty well by the friendly fire)
CORE Instigator: 20% less metal, 10% less build time
CORE Raider: 40% less build time, 10% less metal (this should make it better early/mid game, when you don't have 20 construction aircraft guarding the factory)
CORE leveler: gone? or 40% less cost and build time?
CORE Weasle: no change
CORE Minelayer: possibly less expensive, and with fewer mines
CORE construction vehicle: no change

ARM Sampson: no change
ARM Flash: 10% more metal
ARM Stumpy: 30% less build time, 10% less metal (I don't want it to be as good as the CORE one)
ARM Minelayer: same as core one
ARM Construction Vehicle: no change
ARM Jeffy: no change

CORE AK: 20% less build time, this should make it better for early raiding in difficult terrain
CORE construction K-bot: 10% less metal
CORE Storm: 20% less build time, 10% less metal (to compensate for the new friendly fire)
CORE Thud: 10% less build time
CORE Crasher: no change

ARM peewee: 20% less build time
ARM construction K-bot: 20% less metal
ARM Rocko: 20% less build time, 10% less metal
ARM Hammer: 10% less build time
ARM Jethro: no change

With airplanes, I will only make the CORE avenger cost 20% less.

the defenses all include floating ones:

Light Laser Towers: 50% less build time, 20% less energy (so they are viable anti jeffy/flash weapons.
HLTs: 20% less buildtime, 20% less metal
MT's: same
Mines: 50% less buildtime
All air only things: same
Bertha's/Intimidators: same

all of the other defenses just seem redundent, so I'm getting rid of them.

I am also going to double the los of everything, because of the new 3d environment

IMSabbel · Post by **IMSabbel** » 09 Sep 2005, 04:05

Lindir The Green wrote: The problem is, most of what I know of OTA I picked up from strategy guides, and they don't say why most units are worthless, just that they are and that I shouldn't use them.

Are you sure that you should even _try_ to make a balancing mode to improve "useless units" if you dont even know why those units are useless?

/me goes off writing some chinese poetry. I cant speak chinese and i suck at poetry, but i read something about it so it must be fine. Any input? <sarcasm end>

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 09 Sep 2005, 04:07

I know that they are useless because they don't offer enough firepower/armor/speed/scouting ability for their price.

I just don't know exactly what would make them balanced.

also, I do play OTA, but I just found out about it a year ago, so I don't have as much experience as almost everybody here.

Gnomre · Post by **Gnomre** » 09 Sep 2005, 05:52

Pah, don't even try to pass this off as OTA, it isn't in any way, shape, or form. Cavedog had about 4-5 years to change balance, and the only way they did so was by adding more units. There were only two units they ever changed in the patches, and the only one I can remember off the top of my head is the Sumo (it was originally able to be airlifted, so people would do that a lot, which was a nasty tactic).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame or discourage you. It's one thing to make a rebalancing mod. Go for it. Learn, make it better, use the engine to its full extent. Just don't try to say it's OTA or "how Cavedog intended it", because OTA can be the only way it was intended since Cavedog left it that way.

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 09 Sep 2005, 07:01

Mine layers gone?!!?!? I refuse to stand for such acts of nubbery.

Mine layers are the best defence in a pinch. It's been the deciding factor in land battles the entire time I've played TA.

[K.B.] Napalm Cobra · Post by **[K.B.] Napalm Cobra** » 09 Sep 2005, 09:40

Have you asked Chris Taylor what it was meant to be?

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 09 Sep 2005, 12:08

Why removing hovercrat? They are hardly useless in some sitatuion.

I think your mod could be a good base to add other races, like TLL. What are you thinking about?

OTA was designed with the addion of new units...Is it out of question to add (rarly) some units?

edit : I I have forgot , good initiative Lindir !

Post by **jcnossen** » 09 Sep 2005, 12:19

Good idea, I'd be happy to test it out and see if its more fun than ota.
However if you're removing mine layers because they would be useless, I have to disagree with you. I think they are useful and so think many other people here.
It's a very tactical tool that really adds to the game imo.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 09 Sep 2005, 14:41

imo it's kinda pointless as we already hav UH which does a pretty good job of rebalancing UH imo

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 09 Sep 2005, 15:08

well, I assume that Cavedog/Chris Taylor wanted all units to be useful, and not all of them currently are.

The problem with UH/XTA/AA is that they completely change the usage of many units.

I don't want to change the usage of any units, I just want to make every unit economically feasable to use.

Good Input!

if minelayers are kept, then I want to decrease the number of mines and probably make them cheaper.

the problem with hovercraft is that they are worse than ships in the sea and worse than vehicles on land.

I suppose that I could give them 50% more speed, and then they could be used in hit and run attacks.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 09 Sep 2005, 15:11

Lindir The Green wrote: The problem with UH/XTA/AA is that they completely change the usage of many units.

not true imo

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 09 Sep 2005, 15:22

agreed
and in spring minelayers are amazing! deformable terrain anyone? :D

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 09 Sep 2005, 15:52

Min3mat wrote:agreed
and in spring minelayers are amazing! deformable terrain anyone? :D

Pack nuke mines on a thin part of a water pass = no more pass?

FizWizz · Post by **FizWizz** » 09 Sep 2005, 16:43

re-balancing mods have been done so many times before that it's not funny. Don't think I'm trying to shoo you away though, because learning to tweak units stats is the fundamental step in doing any form of 3rd party unit work, and it gives you a lot better idea how stuff works in TA. Anybody who's thinking about making mods and races should start off by tweaking OTA/UH/XTA

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 09 Sep 2005, 22:36

I edited my original post with new stuff.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » 09 Sep 2005, 23:17

we really need some support/development aid for making mods/races...

i mean.. i know im very very lazy... ..
using some kind of calcsheets + some other administration tricks may yield exelent results... but well.. even cavedog failed at the balance thing too..

what im suggesting.. is in the lines ... of... well i dont know.. but cvs does offer some kind of development... organization.. aid...

something that combines a db of units with some other tools..

db comparition...

TOC manager...

damage/time graphs...

buildtree generator..

Moddef file building.. race compiling... test generator...

there must be some aplication that does some of this already...
at least the db part...

i know i know.... if i cant do any of this i should stfu, but.. im asking for ideas really, so we can get someone payed to do this for us later... :D

Hunter0000 · Post by **Hunter0000** » 10 Sep 2005, 16:38

Lindir The Green wrote: the problem with hovercraft is that they are worse than ships in the sea and worse than vehicles on land..

Ships can't go on land.

Vehicals can't go in sea.

Methinks of the phrase... jack of all trades but master of none?

SinbadEV · Post by **SinbadEV** » 10 Sep 2005, 16:57

Dude I totally need to master dah hovercrafts and pwn people with them... it would make them sads...

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 10 Sep 2005, 18:40

Sorry to insist , but what is your opinion on this :

Torrasque wrote: I think your mod could be a good base to add other races, like TLL. What are you thinking about?

OTA was designed with the addion of new units...Is it out of question to add (rarly) some units?

PauloMorfeo · Post by **PauloMorfeo** » 10 Sep 2005, 18:48

mongus wrote:we really need some support/development aid for making mods/races...
...
using some kind of calcsheets + some other administration tricks ...
what im suggesting.. is in the lines ... of... well i dont know..
...

- To do rebalancing, there is probably going to be needed more than one person testing it so they simulate fights between them (or real stresfull ones).

- Since the balanced units pack will change frequently, there should be a centralized server where the pack is stored and the developers can change there. And whenever other developers go test it, they download the most recent pack. (maybe with CVS or SVN)

- The units pack, should be stored in an SQL database. Good for making web sites like this:
http://www.planetannihilation.com/aa/guide54/index.htm
Or any other kind of searching/updating of units/weapons atributes, as well as keeping the relations between the units, they're weapons and they're explosions.

I've been thinking about it for some time now, and, having a relational database to store units set is something that would probably prove very usefull and is something i can do. I am (to a degree) proficient with database design and sql programming.

The problem is that i started thinking of this by the end of August and i'm now busy. If no one builds a database suitable to store units packs (shouldn't be too hard anyway. Many would be able to, using Access, although a MySql one would be much nicer), i expect myself to eventually do one myself (just don't know when).

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