Balanced Annihilation V6.21

[KingRaptor]

in during "play CA"





play CA

Do SA/MA have floating nanos again? I forget.

[MR.D]

SA does, Tired put them in as soon as I had them textured.

He also put in my Naval Shield generators, but the texture was always upside down so they looked horrible

The textures are some of the first I did, and they're not really that good, probably worth redoing them if the models get into a mod.

Left to right
ARM Naval shield|ARM Naval Nanotower|Core naval Nanotower|Core Naval shield

[LordMatt]

Where is Sleksa anyway?

I gave reasoned statistical arguments why it isn't going to happen. That is slightly more than the usual Sleksa response, but the final answer is the same, for the same reason.

[MR.D]

I'm going to assume that LordMatt is now the lead Dev of BA then.

I still havn't heard your reason for not wanting them, other than just saying "no" over and over like a 5 year old.

I'm sure others are curious to this secret Uber knowledge that you possess as to why Sea nanos would be bad.

Oh, this must be why.

If you suck, you can have an opinion, just don't expect good players to agree with you (and if you persist in having opinions, you may get laughed at).

[LordMatt]

No, but I can guess what will be implemented and what won't (and Noize asks my opinion before he does gameplay changing stuff ).

[[Krogoth86]]

Do SA/MA have floating nanos again? I forget.

I did kind of a small poll a while ago and because of the pro arguments you'll find in this topic too they will be implented in the next version of MA...

I gave reasoned statistical arguments why it isn't going to happen. That is slightly more than the usual Sleksa response, but the final answer is the same, for the same reason.

Well you just gave arguments why you don't like them - you couldn't really disprove the arguments on the usefulness of things like air repairs, assistance for non-ship stuff and some other minor things...

Not that I expect them to be included even if you'd agree on this as new content in BA would be kind of a miracle - that's why I asked for Sleksa for people bashing as the pro and contra arguments should be all clear now...

[dzzirrus]

[quote="[Krogoth86]

I gave reasoned statistical arguments why it isn't going to happen. That is slightly more than the usual Sleksa response, but the final answer is the same, for the same reason.

Well you just gave arguments why you don't like them - you couldn't really disprove the arguments on the usefulness of things like air repairs, assistance for non-ship stuff and some other minor things...
[/quote]

So, to summ it up (why nanotower is better than naval builder):

1. it doesnt consume factory's time to be built.
2. it is greatest assistant for seaplane lab (and not everyone going t2 ships to start seaplanes btw, especially me).
3. it is best unit for assisting massive skimmers production
4. it can repair stuff better than ship. Without less microing atleast.


Actually there is only 1 disadvantage. Players can def easier. So you can hold enemy and one torpedo launcher with one or two cruisers for much longer.

Btw, Lord, If noize is asking you what to implement in new version... could you tell him to ask non-ca fan next time? :)

[Sleksa]

that's why I asked for Sleksa for people bashing as the pro and contra arguments should be all clear now...

*SLEKSA HAS JOINED THE THREAD*

I still havn't heard your reason for not wanting them, other than just saying "no" over and over like a 5 year old.

I'm sure others are curious to this secret Uber knowledge that you possess as to why Sea nanos would be bad.

Even if I, or matt would give you a explanation (lol) it would be of no use because

a) you have never played ba/spring. How am i supposed to tell someone like you how this affects gameplay if you have no idea what gameplay means in the first place

b) you've made up your mind already, you think they are ~Needed~ arguing against you would be like trying to shout brickwall to move


Also the supplied reasons why there should be sea nanos are retarded at best, "they can heal air", " they can heal buildings on sea" - Oh wow dat some cool shit man we must get those things in asap.

While we're on it we could add floating annihilators and LRPCS because land has those things and sea doesnt, hell why stop there, lets give them nukes and floating kbots and floating mexes and floating windmills ~~

[LordMatt]

Well you just gave arguments why you don't like them - you couldn't really disprove the arguments on the usefulness of things like air repairs, assistance for non-ship stuff and some other minor things...

Conships could do these this just as well, if not better.

[[Krogoth86]]

Conships could do these this just as well, if not better.

Might get difficult to use those without a shipyard...

For the rest - just no. Nanos would do a better job on the listed tasks named in this thread and together with the help for non-ship situations they are worth a thought (although useless at the same time as we're talking about BA but it's a matter or principle)...

The only argumentation you brought in here is the worker time / cost approach. Imo this is fail as they needn't have the same stats as the land based one. But even IF they would they still would be worth building in a couple of situations. They won't be the one and only ultimate solution for everything but nobody is asking for that...

[LordMatt]

So we need super naval nanos with better stats than engineers so that you don't have to use con ships (which you'll have to make anyways to make a seaplane platform)?

Nanos would do a better job on the listed tasks named in this thread and together with the help for non-ship situations

What tasks? Conships have more buildpower, only slightly less range, 2x more HP, can move and build things.

If simply must have nanos, you can always make your lab close to the land and build a brick on there (and of course, if sea nanos were actually made with the OP stats you are suggesting, ppl would just build their land factories near the sea to use the OP sea nanos).

[Neddie]

Nanos would be redundant, as we've proven. They can do nothing better than a Con Ship... and if you want more build power on the structure than a brace of Con Ships can offer, you have options.

[[Krogoth86]]

So we need super naval nanos with better stats than engineers so that you don't have to use con ships (which you'll have to make anyways to make a seaplane platform)?
[...]
If simply must have nanos, you can always make your lab close to the land and build a brick on there (and of course, if sea nanos were actually made with the OP stats you are suggesting, ppl would just build their land factories near the sea to use the OP sea nanos).

I did make no suggestion whatsoever concerning their stats! You're actually the first who did one now (which is fail as you prove yourself)...

So we need super naval nanos with better stats than engineers so that you don't have to use con ships

I'm quoting this again as you didn't understand what I was saying. I never said we need Nanos because they're ultra-awesome and ships suck. I just said there are a couple of situations where they would be very handy and so it might be a good idea to implent them...

What tasks?

C'mon that's not your niveau...
It was said for so numerous times now - you can't have missed that...

[LordMatt]

C'mon that's not your niveau...
It was said for so numerous times now - you can't have missed that...

I didn't see any tasks that nanos were significantly better than conships at.

I already showed that conships are as efficent as land nanos, to they would never be worth building unless they had OP stats (as someone else suggested).

[[Krogoth86]]

I didn't see any tasks that nanos were significantly better than conships at.

One example were air repairs...
Ships are too slow for that (unfolding, range etc.) and most likely would try to chase their "targets" who knows where to...

I already showed that conships are as efficent as land nanos, to they would never be worth building unless they had OP stats (as someone else suggested).

Arguing that con-ships are the way to go in a situation without any ships doesn't really sound smart to me...

An example for this would be a hovercraft lab you've built as floating version because of situational or plain map reasons. On scout spamming they also would be slightly better because of no unfolding - just a minor detail...

Oh - btw:

[talking about con-ships] (which you'll have to make anyways to make a seaplane platform)

This in fact is a wrong statement...

[LordMatt]

Look at the build trees of BA 6.21 before making smug arguments plx.

Also making the floating hover platform without ships would make no sense. It costs more and can be killed by sea things, whereas you can put the land on out of range. The only time I ever make one is if I already have a lot of con ships and want to use their build power to spam hovers without having to both build a hover lab and build nanos on land to do the same thing.

Btw I'm not sure who repairs air units besides in specific tactical situations or when they are very expensive units (for which any con will do), but you can make either an air repair pad or a carrier if want automated repairs.

You can make endless arguments about things that people don't really do ingame...

[[Krogoth86]]

Look at the build trees of BA 6.21 before making smug arguments plx.

I in fact did...


You are right though that they aren't as valuable as in former versions where seaplanes were extremely strong. Still the bombers are better than the ground versions and the gunships might be worth a look for shield piercing (at least Arms')...

Also making the floating hover platform without ships would make no sense.

Ships don't make sense on all maps. You for example could do one in the sea of Charlie in the Hills if you wanted (ok - maybe a bad example but the first one with small water regions that came to my mind ). So except if you just play DSD there might be maps where you just want to go for hovers / T2 via subpens as ships make no sense but hovers do...

It costs more and can be killed by sea things, whereas you can put the land on out of range.

Well the cost difference is rather tiny and the argument of putting them out of range applies vice versa vs. ground units...

The only time I ever make one is if I already have a lot of con ships and want to use their build power to spam hovers without having to both build a hover lab and build nanos on land to do the same thing.

So you resist against supporting something where you might want to build one without the need of shipyards?

Btw I'm not sure who repairs air units besides in specific tactical situations or when they are very expensive units (for which any con will do), but you can make either an air repair pad or a carrier if want automated repairs.

Both are T2, both are expensive (especially the carrier if you want to have it JUST for the repair pads besides having it blocking your shipyard for quite a while). It's way more comforable to have a nano near your defenses and also near your patrol routes where it can repair your aircrafts just as your defenses, units or whatever is nearby - quite handy...

You can make endless arguments about things that people don't really do ingame...

You mean like building repair pads?

[LordMatt]

So your master plan is to make a seaplane factory through adv air, so you can justify the need of sea nanos? Given that radar planes have sonar and torpedo bombers from adv air are on par with their seaplane counterparts, you would spend the additional ~3000 metal to get a seaplane lab, for which you could instead have 10+ pheonixes? Otherwise, you're going through ships, which was my point.

[Saktoth]

There is only one drawback of conships, thier low speed on build orders bug

Fixed in CA, this is an acceleration issue, up accel to CA's levels.

[[Krogoth86]]

So your master plan is to make a seaplane factory through adv air, so you can justify the need of sea nanos? Given that radar planes have sonar and torpedo bombers from adv air are on par with their seaplane counterparts, you would spend the additional ~3000 metal to get a seaplane lab, for which you could instead have 10+ pheonixes? Otherwise, you're going through ships, which was my point.

Well I probably wouldn't replace it but as you want to talk about it:
Reclaim the T2 lab and build the seaplane lab from it and use the superfluous ressources (-> T2 lab is more expensive) for building stuff. Then go ahead and build seaplane bombers which are more effective than Phoenixes and have just 44% of their buildtime which means either more than doubled rate of produced bombers or only the need to spend half the ressources for Nanos or whatever you have for assisting...

Apart from that this isn't my "master plan" but it was just an example. You still can read up the others like hovers and subpens...

As it's now about all the details maybe let's bring up another point that got ignored: If you think floating nanos are totally UP in comparison then what about making them underwater?