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Tibet ~~

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clumsy_culhane
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by clumsy_culhane »

Caydr wrote:The fact that China somehow is hosting the Olympics just blows my mind.

I understand that all our politicians are their bitches - necessarily - but I never thought that a "respected" institution like the olympic committee would willfully recognize them as a candidate.

China scares the hell out of me. They're probably the most powerful country on earth when you get right down to it, but they have no morals to go along with that power. They make George Bush's reign look like a walk in the park. They're basically immune to any kind of attack because they have nukes and more economic clout of the entire westernised world combined.
I whole heartedly agree with you. I see China get more and more powerful, and being more power and resource hungry (read: invasion of other countries).

And no western country is going to do anything because we have foreign debt to china, and import so much crap from them. The UN cant do anything because they are so piss-weak and will spend 10 years arguing about what to do , by which stage, China has done something truly catastrophic.
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TheRegisteredOne
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by TheRegisteredOne »

claiming them to be property of china
China's claim on Tibet probably has more historical basis than say US/Canada's claim over north america, or the Albanian's claims for an independent Kosovo. though the CTA's claims to Tibet are probably equally as valid China's. The only difference is the Americans have already successfully assimulated native americans by the beginning of this century, while the Chinese are still at it in Tibet.
morals ... ethics
I don't believe there is such thing as morals in international politics, to strategists in both the west and china, the most important thing is national interest, and morals are just a way of achieving that: you won't find a lot of CNN reports damning the Saudis for their treatment of woman and homosexual, but you'll sure find a lot on that about Iran. I doubt China has any less moral than any other political body, they just dont have to satisfy caring citizens every half a decade.

There is plenty of reasons to be piss scared of China. If we don't derail their development in time, we might not have much on them in 50 years save our moral high horse.
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Caydr
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Caydr »

Forget in 50 years, they are in a position right now at this moment where they can do anything they want and we'll say, "Yeah ok, just keep the cheap jeans and shirts coming". They are completely immune from any kind of attack since they're part of the nuclear club, too. Seeing all the things that come from China, can you imagine the fallout if they said for whatever reason they weren't going to trade with your country anymore?
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Argh
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Argh »

Personally, I don't really see these issues in so grave a light. There could be nothing better, imo, than for China to continue to liberalize their economy, which has led to more liberalization of their political system, as well. Think of a South Korea that's 20X the size. A reformed economy is impossible without creating the very same middle class that supports reasonably rational policy, especially foreign policy.



They've been very aggrieved by the constant protests about the Olympic Torch, though, and I believe rightly.

While I support Tibetan cultural independence, and at least some real autonomy for the region, I personally think that the protesters in the West have made a big mistake, by making something that the average Chinese thought would be their official "welcome to the modern world" event into a massive loss of face.

Their culture doesn't really respond well to that sort of unruly behavior- the protesters could have made a much bigger impact with massive hunger strikes, etc., than through their thuggish assaults on the torch, etc.

I'm really kind of angry with the groups who launched these protests, without thinking for even a minute about how they would be interpreted by people raised in Chinese culture.

I don't like the Tibetan situation very much, as it's been basically a policy of slow-motion cultural genocide, but I think that the way that these people have treated the Chinese in this case will be remembered a lot longer than attempts by our diplomats to soothe them, by deploring the insults while allowing them to continue.

I personally think that you can tell which countries actually have political people on the ball, depending on how they reacted to this- we were clever (for once, the USA did something clever) and let everybody but the thugs win, in San Francisco- the torch-bearers got to do their thing, the protesters got to protest, etc.

Most word-on-the-street stuff from China that I've read indicates that the really disruptive protests have just pissed off the average Chinese person, and doesn't really encourage them to behave any differently, or even to find out why we're mad. Most accounts seem to me to indicate real bafflement, on the part of the average Chinese- they don't get why we're upset, and they're totally insulted by the way we've registered our complaints.

I think that this has been a big failure by the West, especially certain parts of Europe, and a real missed opportunity- instead of creating thoughtful reflection, and encouraging the Chinese people to pursue some knowledge about what's really been happening in Tibet, and come to their own conclusions, it's probably closed a lot of minds.
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Felix the Cat
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Felix the Cat »

I really don't think the protestors are going for the "cultural sensitivity" angle.

I think if you asked a protestor, he'd tell you that the Chinese need to show Tibet "cultural sensitivity" before he starts caring about showing the Chinese any.
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Felix the Cat
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Felix the Cat »

Also, fun fact: the tradition of the Olympic Flame relay started in 1936 before the Berlin Olympics. The tradition was started at the request of the Nazi government, always very heavy into ancient symbolism and flames.

Image

I'm a bit short on reverence for the Olympic Flame.
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yuritch
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by yuritch »

Sleksa wrote:
Luckily for them, the Chinese have low threshold on armed forces use inside their borders
The world's biggest conventional army has a low threshold of armed forces inside its borders ?_?
I meant they have little problem using armed forces to quell any unrests, and they know that shooting a hundred protesters now may save some thousands later. Not very moral, but quite effective.
As for assimilation, that's a classic Chinese strategy. Only before it was used as a defensive thing - China was conquered more than once (Mongols come to mind, and I'm sure there were some others, can't remember whom though), but all the invaders have become 'more Chinese than Chinese themselves' after a couple generations there. Now they are trying to use the same trick in Tibet, so far I see 50 years were not enough for it to work, but who knows what the next 50 years will bring.
Also, Chinese military might and nuclear strength isn't that great a threat to the world, it's their ecenomic power that scares me. They haven't moved far past copying Soviet-made weapons tech with minor changes, their ICBM tech is at the level USSR was mid-1970s at best, and their attempts to buy newer things from Russia (like carrier-suitable aircraft for the unfinished carrier Ukraine sold them which they completed) shows they cannot make those themselves. But their cheap goods are swarming every market in there (Ukraine, Russia and other ex-Soviet republics), and I'm sure the same is happening in Europe and USA as well.
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Sleksa
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Sleksa »

yuritch wrote:
Sleksa wrote:
Luckily for them, the Chinese have low threshold on armed forces use inside their borders
The world's biggest conventional army has a low threshold of armed forces inside its borders ?_?
I meant they have little problem using armed forces to quell any unrests, and they know that shooting a hundred protesters now may save some thousands later. Not very moral, but quite effective.
Ahh ok i misinterpreted you :[
Their culture doesn't really respond well to that sort of unruly behavior- the protesters could have made a much bigger impact with massive hunger strikes, etc., than through their thuggish assaults on the torch, etc.
Yeah, i forgot their "loss of face" and honour culture ~~
Also, Chinese military might and nuclear strength isn't that great a threat to the world, it's their ecenomic power that scares me. They haven't moved far past copying Soviet-made weapons tech with minor changes, their ICBM tech is at the level USSR was mid-1970s at best, and their attempts to buy newer things from Russia (like carrier-suitable aircraft for the unfinished carrier Ukraine sold them which they completed) shows they cannot make those themselves.
If china would be of no threat, Korean war would've ended in a different way ~~

I think a few Chinese officers wrote a book about the warfare of the future, where they listed 3 major points.

1) Military strength

2) Economical strength

3) political strength.

If you look at these numbers, the rest of the world is basically china's bitch regarding economy. There arent that many Nokia's factories left in finland, but theyre building more and more factories in china.

If you look at political strength of china, caydr's quote Pretty much sums it up.
Seeing all the things that come from China, can you imagine the fallout if they said for whatever reason they weren't going to trade with your country anymore?


Their military strength might not be as hi-tech as usa's or europe's, but they still have nukes(ok they're old, but still) and a MASSIVE army
There is plenty of reasons to be piss scared of China. If we don't derail their development in time, we might not have much on them in 50 years save our moral high horse.
And why do we need to "derail" their developement ?

Looking at europe's way of handling politics (lots of talk, little action),
or usa's (shoot first think later) i dont really know if we posess that moral high horse anymore, or if we've ever had one, if you start to think about the slavery, world wars, colonialism, China's history with europe( opium ) etc. Altho i know very little about the history of china, but the western world's history most certainly seems the dirtiest to me ~~
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Argh
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Argh »

I think if you asked a protestor, he'd tell you that the Chinese need to show Tibet "cultural sensitivity" before he starts caring about showing the Chinese any.
Well, I'm sure that that's how the violent protesters saw their actions.

It's a typically Western POV- "I, the individual, wish to register my protest against the Government of another State, and my actions are therefore moral, if not legal."

In China, that comes across as anarchy, which is the one thing that almost everybody in China has a great fear of.

You've gotta understand, people... the Chinese culture has a deep-seated fear of anarchy, because of its roots in rice-planting culture and collective behavior, their experience under the European colonial powers and the Opium War disasters, and of course their constant struggles with their peasant farmers, who are gradually being squeezed in various ways, and often are on the edge of rebellion.

China has dozens of internal confrontations a month, between mainly peasant folks who are getting uprooted economically by the changes taking place, and the Chinese authorities, who are hoping that the wealth spreads downhill, fast.

China's small middle class, which knows its survival depends on the generational changes being made, is very scared about anything that might set off another horrific revolution. Remember, while they're still "Communists" in theory, in reality, most of the educated folks realize that Communism was a giant failure... but changing to a more capital/socialist dynamic is very hard.

The protests would have been far more effective if the protesters had silently lined the streets, and at a signal said some slogan, while otherwise appearing composed and orderly, or by building a monument to the Tibetan cause, or by going on hunger strikes, or by signing their name onto a giant banner, etc., etc., etc. Violent actions by a few, countenanced by the many, sends exactly the wrong signals to the Chinese, because in their culture, if you're going to be violent, you'd better have collective opinion on your side. The countries that let this happen without really doing much about it (France really took the cake on this, imo) just paint all of the West in the worst light, as barbarians who just happen to have the best weapons.

Here in the West, we celebrate individuals, like Dr. Martin Luther King, for standing up in front of huge protests and giving awesome speeches. In China, Dr. King would probably antagonize most people, and if he gained any followers, they'd be locked up anyhow. I think it's fascinating that so few people over here realize that the Chinese are much more worried about movements like Falun Gong, which is designed to create change through social activity, instead of confrontation... those kinds of thing have a great deal more impact on their culture.
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Felix the Cat
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Felix the Cat »

That's all well and good and I know quite a bit about Chinese history, culture, and politics... but the point remains. The protestors really don't care about what the average Cheng in China thinks about the protests. The protests are more aimed at Western governments that are perceived to be ignoring the oppression of the Tibetean people for economic and political reasons.
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TheRegisteredOne
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by TheRegisteredOne »

It is right for China to fear unrest. With the exception of WWII, Chinese civil wars rank with the highest death tolls in history. Even about 150 years ago, an ethnic Chinese Christian "messiah" started the Taiping rebellion which caused the lives of about 20 to 30 million people in just 13 years. And look at the history of the communists themselves. Mao's popular socialist revolution caused the death of millions before more competent leaders came into power (Mao is a great millitary leader, but his economic policies are shit). What do think will happen if the commies get overthrown? Do the chinese really want another Cultural Revolution on their hands?
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Caydr
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Caydr »

The Chinese needed a loss of face. Not the people, since they already aren't allowed to show theirs, I mean their government. This kind of global outrage maybe shows them what the rest of the world thinks of their legitimately unjust system. (as opposed to the quasi-unjust systems that tend to get all the news)

It's scary having power in the hands of dangerous people. I think Saddam Hussein was a dangerous person and shouldn't have been in power. The Americans have an obsession with their own power too, but at least they're not all batshit insane, and I think the American people could theoretically stop their government from doing anything cataclysmically stupid. In theory at least, there are checks and balances. What worries me is, what happens if China's next big politician in power decides he wants to annex a couple more countries? What's going to happen? The Chinese people aren't going to protest (if they even find out there was a war - sarcasm), and neither will anyone else who has the power to stop them. If you disagree with them, you face either economic ruin or total nuclear annihilation.
Argh wrote:Most word-on-the-street stuff from China that I've read indicates that the really disruptive protests have just pissed off the average Chinese person, and doesn't really encourage them to behave any differently, or even to find out why we're mad. Most accounts seem to me to indicate real bafflement, on the part of the average Chinese- they don't get why we're upset, and they're totally insulted by the way we've registered our complaints.
OHHHH why didn't you say so earlier? Let's get on the phone with their state-censored media and figure out why their population has no clue why we're upset. We need to organize a big hunger strike and sing songs and hold hands around a fire, then send them the pictures along with a caption, "Hey, be nice you guys!"

Ask your "word-on-the-street" guys what the average Chinese citizen thinks of the Tianamen Square massacre.
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yuritch
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by yuritch »

Caydr wrote:It's scary having power in the hands of dangerous people... The Chinese people aren't going to protest (if they even find out there was a war - sarcasm)
Well, give an American (or in fact any other) leader a year or so of preparation time (ie enough for a media campaign), and his people will be going to protest if there ISN'T a war started. It all bowls down to what the local "talking box" shows and says... As proven more than once by recent history. Now, who's dangerous?
A sane person will never start a war that will put his own life in danger without a considerable chance of success (such as China attempting to 'annex' some neighbouring countries, which will likely cause the wrath of either USA or Russia, or both), and an insane person isn't likely to hold power in any country strong enough to really matter on the world dangerousness scale. What they say matters little, no matter how insane it may sound, it's what they do that matters (keep this in mind re: Russia, China, Iran and some others).
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Caydr
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Caydr »

an insane person isn't likely to hold power in any country strong enough to really matter on the world dangerousness scale.
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TheRegisteredOne
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by TheRegisteredOne »

China isn't a one man show, and as some sort of meritocracy, they probably have less of a chance of getting a crazy president than some random unstable democracy. China isn't going to go crazy and 'annex' countries any time soon. being democracy doesn't mean you have a peaceful foreign policy. America was a democracy from its inception. How many times larger is it now compared to the original colonies? Your logic is unsound.
Last edited by TheRegisteredOne on 13 Apr 2008, 00:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Machiosabre
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Machiosabre »

I dunno, Taiwan might be a good catch.
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TheRegisteredOne
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by TheRegisteredOne »

Machiosabre wrote:I dunno, Taiwan might be a good catch.
But did they come out one day out of the blue and say they are going to 'annex' Taiwan? They've been saying the same thing for over 60 years. It wasn't because of some crazy leader, it has been one of the goals of the commies since the very beginning. And how is being a democracy going to help the case with Taiwan? If you give the average Cheng a vote on the matter, Taiwan will probably get flatten tomorrow.
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PicassoCT
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by PicassoCT »

The Taiwan Case is difficult

The Chinese Mentality on this is that there is a center in there Country and the closer you are to this (born in shanghai or peking) with the ethny HAN the higher you are above the comon barbaric borderfolks like in tibet or taiwan. So what china needs is to calm its nationalism (which its current leaders fire up because it it the only legitimacysource they have)
And before there should be votes, there should be justice and institutions, small countys who stand against the centralist goverment. Western Countrys are that strong (and resistant against the strongmandisease ) because there Central powers were that weak most of the time -
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TheRegisteredOne
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by TheRegisteredOne »

PicassoCT wrote:The Taiwan Case is difficult

The Chinese Mentality on this is that there is a center in there Country and the closer you are to this (born in shanghai or peking) with the ethny HAN the higher you are above the comon barbaric borderfolks like in tibet or taiwan. So what china needs is to calm its nationalism (which its current leaders fire up because it it the only legitimacysource they have)
And before there should be votes, there should be justice and institutions, small countys who stand against the centralist goverment. Western Countrys are that strong (and resistant against the strongmandisease ) because there Central powers were that weak most of the time -
lolwut?
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Gota
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Re: Tibet ~~

Post by Gota »

Commies are right...Nationalism is BS there is no tibet.
workers of the world unite!!!!
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