no respect for spring

[Machiosabre]

While on the subject of saving mental energy:
You can save some too, you could have just posted:

You know, the design a frontend competition made some nice new spring pages, why not stop pissing about and make something to solve the problem instead of making giant posts.

[Argh]

Meh, the solution has multiple prongs, I am still hopeful that people will grab at all the opportunities and get stuff done. Probably overly optimistic on my part.

[Machiosabre]

yes.

[aegis]

Does anyone know about how many active players we have? Somewhere around 2000 unique IP addresses have hosted games recently... Just wondering if anyone has a more accurate number.

[AF]

While I would agree with what argh said to varying degrees I must also stress that all is not as it appears to be, and not all efforts are public efforts, so do not be so quick to pass judgement.

[KDR_11k]

Demo: You make it sound like mods have a duty towards Spring to contribute players to the userbase. The problem these teams see is that the shared userbase is the BA userbase and any of their players that get offered to the share too early will go with BA due to availability. You said (IIRC) that the mods are at fault for not always offering games but how can they without a playerbase? You need to build a base of a certain size before there'll be no shortage of games. By blocking the easy way out (going to BA) the motivation to try the harder way grows. Once there's enough players the mods can merge back into the main base without having their players defect but until then the separation is necessary.

[DemO]

Demo: You make it sound like mods have a duty towards Spring to contribute players to the userbase. The problem these teams see is that the shared userbase is the BA userbase and any of their players that get offered to the share too early will go with BA due to availability. You said (IIRC) that the mods are at fault for not always offering games but how can they without a playerbase? You need to build a base of a certain size before there'll be no shortage of games. By blocking the easy way out (going to BA) the motivation to try the harder way grows. Once there's enough players the mods can merge back into the main base without having their players defect but until then the separation is necessary.

/agree

But like I said, it's rediculous to block other mods out when using the shared lobby. Either try to leech players from the BA dominated userbase whilst leaving the option of other mods open to them, or modify/create a new lobby which is strictly dedicated to a particular project.

Point being that if you restrict new players to a single mod on the shared lobby when they are unaware that infact there are other mods which are more popular that they could be playing then its a double whammy - loss for the project in question and loss of potential addition to BA/CA etc playerbase.

If you seperate the playerbase and try to create your own through advertising projects outside of the spring playerbase/community then lose a newcomer, its only a loss for the mod in question. The newcomer can still download the current BA dominated lobby later on and see that there is a larger playerbase, rather than believing that Spring has a tiny playerbase just because a filter is set that he/she didnt notice.

The current suggestion of a filter on shared lobby seems to me like an attempt to restrict/inhibit the advertising and knowledge of mods like BA for the benefit of newly released projects. Its simply just not fair in a shared environment where mods are competing for a share of the playerbase and attempting to grow in popularity.

And "blocking out the easy way" as you put it is much better achieved by establishing a distinction, i.e. seperate playerbase and lobby than trying to "hide" the existence of other projects in the hope that newcomers wont find the filter and untick the check box. In essence, I just think that it's not in the best interests of any mod to purposefully misinform new users.

See what I mean?

[Vadi]

Heh, if a mod dev can't handle the thought of sharing a server, then they should go away and setup their own then.

This is supposed to be fun, both for the makers and players. I however can't see how players will be happy if they'll be blocked from playing other mods, or do I see the makers being happy thinking that potentially they're losing players because there are other mods there too!

Oh noes, I wonder how do companies who use team get by. Just the thought of players having the freedom to choose what they like. Horrid!

[lurker]

freedom to choose what they like. Horrid!

Back away from the strawman. We have you surrounded. Back away from the strawman.

[NKrypt]

freedom to choose what they like. Horrid!

Back away from the strawman. We have you surrounded. Back away from the strawman.

1984 anyone?

[KDR_11k]

Point being that if you restrict new players to a single mod on the shared lobby when they are unaware that infact there are other mods which are more popular that they could be playing then its a double whammy - loss for the project in question and loss of potential addition to BA/CA etc playerbase.

If you seperate the playerbase and try to create your own through advertising projects outside of the spring playerbase/community then lose a newcomer, its only a loss for the mod in question. The newcomer can still download the current BA dominated lobby later on and see that there is a larger playerbase, rather than believing that Spring has a tiny playerbase just because a filter is set that he/she didnt notice.

Um, I don't see a difference between a player leaving the shared but hidden lobby without knowing about the other mods and a player leaving a dedicated server without knowing about the other mods.

A separate server only changes things for existing players as they no longer see the mod's games or players and cannot join them without downloading a separate client or at least entering a separate server address. Sharing with filters means existing Spring users can play it without bothering with any large changes.

You might see it as unfair towards BA but isn't it just as unfair that AA got to grow its userbase without major competition while no other mod gets the same chance? This isn't about fairness, this is about getting shit done.

[AF]

This is the real world. Things are rarely fair, and while we may strive for a utopia it can never be fully achieved.

Demo it sounds as if you are scared that BA will loose players and die if progress is made in this particular field. I would argue you have an agenda to protect BA from the problem because you feel BA will not survive if any of these ideas make it through.

This if anything in my opinion is a vote of no confidence in BA, and why representatives or fans of BA need to come in here and participate in this discussion at all raises questions about hidden agendas and malicious meddling.

BA has a nice position, it needn't worry about these problems, and by all means it has the momentum necessary to survive of its own accord. If anything I believe BA could seperate from spring and stand as a game in its own right rather than staying in the nest and artificially limiting itself.

So why are people coming in and denouncing the proposals? Who are also BA players? Who are arguing for reasons of fairness for BA? For keeping the community on the same server and encouraging an isolationist view of what the community actually is? Who themselves say BA doesn't have these problems undermining the whole reason why they're in this thread to begin with?

There are foxes in the nest here guys. Maybe they truly do believe that the survival of non TA mods mortally threatens BA, which in itself is a tremendous error of judgement, but they are holding back progress.

Do not attempt to persuade these people, aside from being entitled to their opinions, their voices are worthless, and as are yours, work towards actual action rather than discussing endlessly. You dont ened community wide consensus to do something, and the community tends to follow the people who actually do things.


Demo, Sleksa, what do you think we should do? You've got plenty of arguments against us but your offering no solutions up yourselves, enlighten us!!

[DemO]

So basically, pretend that BA/CA/XTA/insert-popular-mods-here dont exist by using filters and misdirect new players in the hope that they dont find the toggle off checkbox which no doubt will be hidden somewhere completely obtuse, whilst trying to steal players away from mods that already have a decent player base using the same lobby server, because its fair that all mods should have no apparent competition despite pooling players out of the same userbase because AA didnt have any, but lets forget that the circumstances then were totally different from now because..

This isn't about fairness, this is about getting shit done.

Mmmk.. What comes around goes around. Think I'll bookmark that quote for future reference.

[AF]

Demo, Sleksa, what do you think we should do? You've got plenty of arguments against us but your offering no solutions up yourselves, enlighten us!!

[tombom]

Demo, Sleksa, what do you think we should do? You've got plenty of arguments against us but your offering no solutions up yourselves, enlighten us!!

WHAT IF THERE IS NO PRTOBLEM

SJHUT THE FUCK UP

[DemO]

This is the real world. Things are rarely fair, and while we may strive for a utopia it can never be fully achieved.

Demo it sounds as if you are scared that BA will loose players and die if progress is made in this particular field. I would argue you have an agenda to protect BA from the problem because you feel BA will not survive if any of these ideas make it through.

The only reason I've mentioned BA is because everyone else has as usual made this discussion about the dominant BA playerbase and how it supposedly oppresses and inhibits any new mods from having a chance.

This if anything in my opinion is a vote of no confidence in BA, and why representatives or fans of BA need to come in here and participate in this discussion at all raises questions about hidden agendas and malicious meddling.

You're deranged, and you see BA players as some sort of different, lower form of people that are not entitled to show an opinion? Everything I've said in this thread so far applies to ALL MOD PROJECTS in Spring, not just BA. Some content developers here are hyper hypocritical and constantly contradict themselves. You say BA players make it impossible for other mods to succeed by saying things like "EE sucks, play BA" but then immediately suggest that popular mods such as BA are filtered out of sight, hidden away completely from the uninformed newcomers, which is 100x worse, but oh, its ok because it's the TA mods, the ones that have oppressed us for years and made it impossible to build a user base.

I cant believe you dont realise how STUPID that sounds. As I've said before, make a game that is better and people will flock to play it. To take in most of the current user base it probably has to be subjectively better in their opinion. To take in a new user base it just has to be a decent mod/game that's fun to play and has a decent amount of playability, i.e. users won't get bored after a few days or weeks. It has to be advertised and marketed well, and have support of at least a small number of people in the beginning to get it off the ground.

BA has a nice position, it needn't worry about these problems, and by all means it has the momentum necessary to survive of its own accord. If anything I believe BA could seperate from spring and stand as a game in its own right rather than staying in the nest and artificially limiting itself.

How is this any different from new mods seperating themselves from the current BA dominated userbase? Certainly it makes less sense to move the entire BA community to another location than for a new project to start off somewhere new.

There are foxes in the nest here guys. Maybe they truly do believe that the survival of non TA mods mortally threatens BA, which in itself is a tremendous error of judgement, but they are holding back progress.

Wrong, and frankly laughable. I can confidently say that almost everyone in the current Spring community would welcome with open arms a game/mod that challenges/threatens the popularity of BA and is more fun/enjoyable to play. Its a paradox in the sense that such a project will only "threaten" BA as you put it if the current BA playerbase found it to be more enjoyable, in which case, obviously they would play it and be thankful.

Demo, Sleksa, what do you think we should do? You've got plenty of arguments against us but your offering no solutions up yourselves, enlighten us!!

I'm not going to suggest what you do, especially after reading that post...Clearly you have no interest in considering the opinions of anyone you consider to be a BA fanboy, simply because they play BA. It's like racial profiling, only at a harmless level.

I sincerely intended my posts in this thread to address the community in general, not specifically in the interests of BA, though you percieved me as doing so for some reason, and frankly its probably just because you know I (used) to play BA.

[AF]

Demo, you still ahvent read the thread correctly or you would not be touting your alarmist view of mod filtering.

So for you and everyone else here, let me make it clear what is meant. 'mod filtering' as you put it is an improper description.

The lobby itself will provide profiles which will set up 'defaults'. These defaults will set up branding, colours, essentially how the content creator wants the lobby to look for them.

Naturally when the lobby is started in xyz mode it will prioritize xyz games. No mention was made about hiding the existence of other content. For example if the battle list was a tab control, the first tab would have the preferred content and appear first, but the other games would still be shown, just not as prominently.

At any point the player wishes to play something else they can choose another games using a menu, just as gpgnet can be changed between different games. The player may wish not to choose a game specific profile at all and choose a generic profile that work like the current lobby does.

What you are failing to notice is that this sort of set up exists in most lobbies out there. At the end of the day this is a setup of convenience to the user and many would argue it would aid the end user rather than manipulate them. This is not the lobby side ethnic cleansing you are touting, this is organisation. Your logic would suggest that any fitlering of any kind is even if it requires the user to turn it on. Google is thus evil because it filters out non relevant searches. phpbb is evil because it filters out threads from other forums your not looking at. the very concept of a filing cabinets drawers is evil.

[AF]

And nowhere did I say I thought BA fans were sub human. How dare you slander me. You know full well I have written blog posts addressing this accusation and yet you still accuse me of it.

[DemO]

Good post. The approach to filtering you suggest there is completely acceptable and fair IMO. It's pretty much what I would envision a respectable filtering system to be like. Adapting the lobby to advertise and promote specific mods is fine, provided that other mods are not left entirely unseen. I cba to re-read every post in this thread to see if i misinterpreted somewhere but if I did I'm sorry.

I did however get the distinct impression that KDR and others are pushing for a filtering method whereby newcomers are left completely oblivious to the other mod projects in spring outwith "project xyz". Else why would he emphasise that preventing new comers from "the easy way out (playing BA)" is necessary.

Your post before was riddled with pretty blatant accusations of negative intent, so my "slandering" was simply a response to that. Hopefully the rhetoric in the question made it obvious I wasn't being entirely serious, but anyway...

[AF]

KDR and co are working under the assumption that they're already aware of other games because the spring site told them, and because their own sites link to other games.

However fi someone did want to do what you wanted you would be in no position to stop them and neither would anyone else, and theyre unlikely to be swayed by anything on these forums.