Some Thoughts on RTS in General

[kiki]

ya, but dont just trash the idea. Im still trying to get ideas...

[Pxtl]

I think that there is not way fps mode can be usefull in a rts game. I mean units already aim perfectly, so the other thing to gain would be evasive movement. But since units aim perfectly, evasive movement has very little use, and while using a single unit in fps mode you could be microing a large group in rts mode...

Or, you could actually play such a game, like the BattleZone series and see how FPS is useful in an RTS. But talking about on the forum is less work, so you could do that instead.

In short - slower projectiles can be dodged/outrun. AIs do not dodge (they just jink randomly) - you do. AIs do not use the special weapons on their vehicle - they only fire the primary weapon. Hence, FPS on-site combat is important.

[KDR_11k]

I'd be careful with "complexity". Many here seem to understand that as unit numbers. Sure, you can have complexity by having a gigantic net of RPS connections (there's a variant of RPS with something like 40 different items) but that's mostly just confusing. It is very possible to have a complex game despite using only a small number of units. Complexity is how many different situations and approaches can be reached within a game.

However, badly applied complexity hurts the game. Having the choice between 20 units that seem the same at a first glance makes the game hard to understand. TA-derivatives are almost impossible to learn quickly if you haven't learned TA already. Commercial games these days hide their complexity by offering a much smaller and more defined selection of units. When you start playing it seems easy, you have to dig to see the complexity. That makes them more attractive to nubs, the game doesn't seem daunting.

[manored]

I think that there is not way fps mode can be usefull in a rts game. I mean units already aim perfectly, so the other thing to gain would be evasive movement. But since units aim perfectly, evasive movement has very little use, and while using a single unit in fps mode you could be microing a large group in rts mode...

Or, you could actually play such a game, like the BattleZone series and see how FPS is useful in an RTS. But talking about on the forum is less work, so you could do that instead.

In short - slower projectiles can be dodged/outrun. AIs do not dodge (they just jink randomly) - you do. AIs do not use the special weapons on their vehicle - they only fire the primary weapon. Hence, FPS on-site combat is important.

Regardeless commanding a lot of units togheder is way more efficient than a single one. I already played a rts where fps mode was usefull: Dungeon keeper 2, but it was mostly because there were some things that only could be done under fps mode, not because it was actual powerfull. Making fps mode be usefull by adding tons of advantages to it sounds lame.

Fps mode is more for fun than for tactic :)

[KDR_11k]

Also most mods will be designed to have units be capable of doing what they have to without FPS mode. Sure, they won't dodge slow shots automatically but without strafing there's not much difference between FPSing them out of the way or just microing them.

[Scratch]

Regardless of what people call RTS or turn based gameplay TA has been the only game to require such a high learning curve, since the commands and resources can be broken down to a decimal point, whereas in games like

Starcraft
C&C
Homeworld

and some of the lesser played mods in Spring

are more digitized in the way that the variables have been dumbed down to pretty much move this unit there and move this one there. Usually your constricted to a limited number of builders per, so certain build strategies are almost always wins.

Also the designers of these dumb games often get the idea that a prettier unit is more important than a playable game, eg. Starcraft, Battlezone, or earth 2150 or any of these older games.

[KDR_11k]

So you think SC and the likes are just about moving more units somewhere? Did you every try using unit abilities? Really, isn't TA more about moving units somewhere since a unit can pretty much move and shoot while in other games a unit can often use one to three special abilities that must be used at the right time and often units can work together with other units (e.g. infantry garrissoning in buildings)?

Also I think your "pretty units" comment is merely caused by the fact that TA is ugly as sin when it comes to units. There is no relation between visuals and gameplay other than the usual interface issues (quickly identifiable units and designs that make the function easy to grasp).

[jellyman]

If RTS battles were something like the movies, we would be seeing good guy peewees that can micro through dozens of bad guy l2 tanks and heavy turrets and not get hit once.

[CarRepairer]

If RTS battles were something like the movies, we would be seeing good guy peewees that can micro through dozens of bad guy l2 tanks and heavy turrets and not get hit once.

Ah yes, the stormtrooper effect. I have an idea... Let's make it so the game randomly chooses one peewee per battle who is invincible. No one will know which one it is, until he makes it past all the tanks to the enemy's base, destroys it and fights the commander one on one until the comm blows up, as the one peewee jumps away from the blast in slow-motion. Then he returns to your base a hero.

[kiki]

rofl


for core it is krog.

[OvermindDL1]

What about all of your thoughts on the RTS game Warzone 2100 where you construct even the unit types and so forth? It dwarfs the TA style of gameplay with sheer variety, not to mention a ton of research, but you have to have the mindset for it as those games also tend to take a great deal longer as well, although staying rather fast paced the entire time.

Hmm, interesting though, wonder how plausible it would be to make a WZ2100 mod in Spring... Would probably need a good bit of scripting...

[Google_Frog]

If RTS battles were something like the movies, we would be seeing good guy peewees that can micro through dozens of bad guy l2 tanks and heavy turrets and not get hit once.

Ah yes, the stormtrooper effect. I have an idea... Let's make it so the game randomly chooses one peewee per battle who is invincible. No one will know which one it is, until he makes it past all the tanks to the enemy's base, destroys it and fights the commander one on one until the comm blows up, as the one peewee jumps away from the blast in slow-motion. Then he returns to your base a hero.

Then it morphs to Crabe and kills a krog.

[Felix the Cat]

fps needs to be improved to provide more of a tactical advantage.

It actually did provide a tactical advantage in the past due to some bugs that have since been corrected.

[jellyman]

And if RTS were like real life, a certain percentage of your peewees would discover pot, drop out, grow long hair and sing 'give peace a chance' to the strum of a guitar and the glow of a campfire.

[manored]

And if RTS were like real life, a certain percentage of your peewees would be terminated and reclaimed upon birth due to production errors

Fixed :)

[Saktoth]

fps needs to be improved to provide more of a tactical advantage.

It actually did provide a tactical advantage in the past due to some bugs that have since been corrected.

Yeah this sucks, there are actually heaps of advantages to FPS we just keep 'fixing' them.

[BlueTemplar]

This is somewhat bit sad that TA games have so few "micromanagement" units. Let's see, we have:
-D-gun
-Metal makers (but so annoying it was automated)
-high trajectory & missiles (but most of the time you only have to check on them from time to time)
-LRPC (it's often worth it to micro them)
-bombers
-catapult/raven
-nuke-juno-emp
-transports (rarely used, have you already seen a drop in ta?)
-cloaked units (but they often don't have a jammer, or the cloak-lost collision sphere is too big, so they are useless).

A little more variety wouldn't hurt... and if it's complicated to add special abilities, some units at least could have passive effects, like personal or small (frontal only?) shield/deflector, things like napalm attack (that do damage in an area for some time), etc...

[Google_Frog]

BlueTemplar, have you played CA?

[BlueTemplar]

Not much, I have some hardware issues with it. But from what I've heard it's getting more and more interesting.

[CarRepairer]

I'm making a widget that watches every forum for people who like micro and then argues with them. That way I don't have to keep an eye on each thread.