Serious balance issue: goliaths
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HellToupee
- Posts: 59
- Joined: 01 May 2005, 01:27
Well, thats why goliaths are FOR! They are made to have insane amounts of HP to survive any normal ''OMFG KILL GOLIATH ALL WE HAVE!'' defence. Smaller units have more damage poteianl once they get into the base, but before that time, they die like flyes!the issue with them is that they will pretty much always just get through defences where even swarms of smaller units would just die by the hundreds even when the odds are against them they still take down any building they get in range.
But if you still dont like em...
[SJ said:] we might reduce their health somewhat in a later release[/quote]
End of dicusion.
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HellToupee
- Posts: 59
- Joined: 01 May 2005, 01:27
Well the problem is this... it doesn't take a whole lot to prepare a couple goliaths. The enemy can have them ready and rolling well before you can get a heavy defense up. And unlike HLTs that must chew away at a goliath, the goliath can kill those 7 HLTs quickly. So a 7 HLT defense comparison means nothing when half will be dead within 15-30 seconds.
Hmmph
If all they're throwing at you is a 2-goliath rush... well, that's pretty much the exact case the D-Gun was designed for. Besides, Goliaths are much better as a frontline assault backed up by some heavy artillery - I useually use 1-3 goliaths backed up with a bunch of mortar units and AA-kbots.
I'm generally of the opinion that TA is pretty well balanced, and that if something's giving you that much trouble, then you're doing something wrong. If he's running at you with a Goliath, why hasn't your artillery been pounding it into oblivion since before it even saw your base? Why is it getting into firing range? They're not fast.
IMHO, the most powerful unit in the game? The radar plane. Makes your artillery godlike thanks to it's obscene sight-range.
I'm generally of the opinion that TA is pretty well balanced, and that if something's giving you that much trouble, then you're doing something wrong. If he's running at you with a Goliath, why hasn't your artillery been pounding it into oblivion since before it even saw your base? Why is it getting into firing range? They're not fast.
IMHO, the most powerful unit in the game? The radar plane. Makes your artillery godlike thanks to it's obscene sight-range.
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COSTS TABLE
Bulldog Goliath LigthFusion Hlt Llt Solar mm Flash
H 9694 28450 2500 2460 1120 489 144 820
M 1308 4650 1500 818 294 145 0 127
E 8383 26560 19228 7557 637 0 687 1044
BT 14638 33786 37906 13176 5037 2495 2605 1373
E/s - ≈ -300 +300 -150 -30 +20 -60 -
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TOC TABLE
Bulldog Goliath Hlt Llt
metal 1308 6150 1768 215
energy 8383 65042 17171 637
buildtime 14638 71692 32129 7532
Energy/s - - - -
(goliath+ligthfusion, hlt+0.5ligthfusion, llt+1.5solars)
4 Bulldogs
2 llt
4 flash
8 mm (to convert 1200 e into metal)...
that is equivalent with
110 energy surplus and
-28256 build time deficit
anyhow i think mines should take part in the Gollie hunt, ill add them later.
be rigth back... after testing :D,
(here is the dirty exel used for calculations).
Last edited by mongus on 23 Aug 2005, 07:50, edited 5 times in total.
Well, after not much testing,
The gollie beast encountered the small arm base, and harrased the troops that stood put in its positions.
Then, the carnage took place, lots explotions everywhere.
Finally, (survivors of) the small base watch the dead carcass. (and its path).
Killed the gollie 2 times that way.
Tested again, but staying(micro) at max los range, even then, the gollie misses lots of shots... (+40%), but this way its able to destroy the tanks without being hit all the time. anyhow managed to kill the last llt with 8k hp... that is very little for a gollie.
i know , there is a lot of difference between a test and playing vs a good player.
but at least gives a basic comparition point of cost vs firepower.
here is the ssf, its in desert dunes.
I may do tests tests with more golliats.
Anyhow, im surprised the goliath died. (2 times, survived once, with small hp).
The gollie beast encountered the small arm base, and harrased the troops that stood put in its positions.
Then, the carnage took place, lots explotions everywhere.
Finally, (survivors of) the small base watch the dead carcass. (and its path).
Killed the gollie 2 times that way.
Tested again, but staying(micro) at max los range, even then, the gollie misses lots of shots... (+40%), but this way its able to destroy the tanks without being hit all the time. anyhow managed to kill the last llt with 8k hp... that is very little for a gollie.
i know , there is a lot of difference between a test and playing vs a good player.
but at least gives a basic comparition point of cost vs firepower.
here is the ssf, its in desert dunes.
I may do tests tests with more golliats.
Anyhow, im surprised the goliath died. (2 times, survived once, with small hp).
Last edited by mongus on 23 Aug 2005, 02:52, edited 1 time in total.
hm. Your pics dont load, so i cant comment on the defense layout (and thus the results).
Maybe the most recent changes in acuracy while driving were really effective...
(because i remember a game with 0.5 when i just pushed for a single goliath, drove into the enemy base and even while driving circles every shot hit, even small l1 units over surprising distances (and none needed more than 2 hits... his commander was dead before in d-gun range...
Maybe the most recent changes in acuracy while driving were really effective...
(because i remember a game with 0.5 when i just pushed for a single goliath, drove into the enemy base and even while driving circles every shot hit, even small l1 units over surprising distances (and none needed more than 2 hits... his commander was dead before in d-gun range...
Yeps, first and second time, the goliath was moving, so, i can blame a bit on that.
the last time i tested however, tried to stay far from the bulldogs, but stopping a lot more, to avoid the moving penalty.... anyhow, it was a bit dumb, bc the goliath didnt face the bulldogs all at once, but almost in groups of 2... (llts almost didnt take part in the defense(but with los assist).
so, in short, y did micro in favor of the goliath, the arm units defense was poor, and the result was very tight still, even when the goliath won.
That is enough for me to realize that the goliath is overrun by these units, if properly used. (its not hard to chase a goliath... ).
but that is only what i can conclude. and is very empiric.
(i wonder if we can poll 2 ais with different setups..)
Anyone else has trouble loading images?.
btw, IMSabbel, there is the link for the saved game with the units setup used, just copy over spring folder and then load the ssf file from menu, and run the test yourself.
the last time i tested however, tried to stay far from the bulldogs, but stopping a lot more, to avoid the moving penalty.... anyhow, it was a bit dumb, bc the goliath didnt face the bulldogs all at once, but almost in groups of 2... (llts almost didnt take part in the defense(but with los assist).
so, in short, y did micro in favor of the goliath, the arm units defense was poor, and the result was very tight still, even when the goliath won.
That is enough for me to realize that the goliath is overrun by these units, if properly used. (its not hard to chase a goliath... ).
but that is only what i can conclude. and is very empiric.
(i wonder if we can poll 2 ais with different setups..)
Anyone else has trouble loading images?.
btw, IMSabbel, there is the link for the saved game with the units setup used, just copy over spring folder and then load the ssf file from menu, and run the test yourself.
Re: Hmmph
A Goliath kills a Commander in 3 hits. Doesn't work.Pxtl wrote:If all they're throwing at you is a 2-goliath rush... well, that's pretty much the exact case the D-Gun was designed for.
As for the mini assault... Was that Goliath given a move order to reach the solar collectors? That's the problem with Goliaths... it's not that they win fights against huge odds. It's that they survive against so much firepower that they can bypass defenses and drive straight into the rear of your base. You will kill them, but not before they take out your energy and metal production.
This has me wondering:
Why is the commander pretty much the only unit whose hps dont got a boost?
The original concept of the commander was the nearly indestructable main units the looses the game when destroyed...
but in Xta, he became terribly fragile (because offensive power has been adjusted to just about everything having multi k HP)
Why is the commander pretty much the only unit whose hps dont got a boost?
The original concept of the commander was the nearly indestructable main units the looses the game when destroyed...
but in Xta, he became terribly fragile (because offensive power has been adjusted to just about everything having multi k HP)
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FoeOfTheBee
- Posts: 557
- Joined: 12 May 2005, 18:26
well, wtv with the commander, i think you just dont know well how to use him (cloak, hide behind stuff), and kill kroggs with him.
In the other hand i think the golliath myth is vanished, as with the same metal and enenrgy you can get a more powerfull army.
the boost to the commander and contruction units, is the ability to build lvl2 stuff rigth away when you have the resources and base support, that is not the same that bulding lvl2 stuff rigth away from the beguinning, (which, is not possible, even in uber metal maps, bc a raid of lvl1 units, defeats you.).
you need to play more, imho.
(and no, the gollie didnt drive rigth away to the solars, BUT, no use for that, as the only thing that needs power are the llts, and they.. well.. shot very little in the encounter.)
In the other hand i think the golliath myth is vanished, as with the same metal and enenrgy you can get a more powerfull army.
the boost to the commander and contruction units, is the ability to build lvl2 stuff rigth away when you have the resources and base support, that is not the same that bulding lvl2 stuff rigth away from the beguinning, (which, is not possible, even in uber metal maps, bc a raid of lvl1 units, defeats you.).
you need to play more, imho.
(and no, the gollie didnt drive rigth away to the solars, BUT, no use for that, as the only thing that needs power are the llts, and they.. well.. shot very little in the encounter.)
I certainly know the advanced build abilities (fucks up balance, too, due to stopping the need for factory level advancing), but cloak or not, with its pathetic building speed (is it 3or 4 times slower than a fark?) the commander is more a liability then a benefit in mid/endgame (yeah right. dgunning krogoths... one wrong click and the commander detonation would do more damage then the krogoth could....)
well. i can see you need more training.
or just go play ota, UH, or any other.
if you have not noticed, we are talking about xta, which is a balance mod, and it does exactly that, changes the original balance to something else, that (for the ppl who play it) makes more sense.
as i say, go play ota if you feel dont like it, there is alot of fans of the original balance out there.
As for balance in the build tree, it has been discussed many times, and i just pointed out, that... it doestn unbalance stuff... as you cant start by building lvl2 stuff rigth away, because, a good lvl1 attack, is always quicker and more effective. thus, you will loose always if you choose that way of playing.
the altered build tree, seems like an exelent boost to the construction units, and more specific to its function, (i dont want a 6k HP building unit), thats is, building stuff.
you can always "exile" commander in mid-late game, as i already stated, its expendable, and decoy commanders have all its functions(same build speed and build tree), but dgun, cloak, less HP, and no integrated bomb.
Build speed of the commander... i think it even had a boost from ota, but im not sure. Anyhow, it seems you never played ota, because you are comparing him to a FARK, which is a Super-Fast building unit, (lvl2).
The commander generates more energy now (+60?) than it did in ota, and that is very usefull because it lets you get stated without having to go 3 solars first..
or just go play ota, UH, or any other.
if you have not noticed, we are talking about xta, which is a balance mod, and it does exactly that, changes the original balance to something else, that (for the ppl who play it) makes more sense.
as i say, go play ota if you feel dont like it, there is alot of fans of the original balance out there.
As for balance in the build tree, it has been discussed many times, and i just pointed out, that... it doestn unbalance stuff... as you cant start by building lvl2 stuff rigth away, because, a good lvl1 attack, is always quicker and more effective. thus, you will loose always if you choose that way of playing.
the altered build tree, seems like an exelent boost to the construction units, and more specific to its function, (i dont want a 6k HP building unit), thats is, building stuff.
you can always "exile" commander in mid-late game, as i already stated, its expendable, and decoy commanders have all its functions(same build speed and build tree), but dgun, cloak, less HP, and no integrated bomb.
Build speed of the commander... i think it even had a boost from ota, but im not sure. Anyhow, it seems you never played ota, because you are comparing him to a FARK, which is a Super-Fast building unit, (lvl2).
The commander generates more energy now (+60?) than it did in ota, and that is very usefull because it lets you get stated without having to go 3 solars first..