moderation.

[SwiftSpear]

Moderation, does now, and always has worked on a basis of getting rid of only the people who we don't believe have any intent of doing good for the community. That's why contributors who slip up get chance after chance, because we know that while they do stupid things they also don't mean to do damage and are trying to contribute.

We generally permaban, or long term ban, only people who show that they amuse themselfs by frustrating and annoying other people, and that they have no intent to stop that type of behavior. A ban might be provoked by a single action, but the context of the ban is determined by a plethora of actions and the character of the individual being disciplined.

[edit] Keep in mind, moderation is privy to alot more information on who is smurfing as what and what exactly has been said in #main and other channels in the past. So while some actions we make might seem to make no sense at all, you don't understand the whole story.

[Peet]

People get unbanned/unmuted when they ask for it regardless of who they are. Even if they don't, the ban and mute durations are pretty short.

Spring's moderation *wants* you to break the rules, frequently.

False, on all counts. To the former, they are unbanned if we feel they deserve another chance to prove they can behave. If we determine that they are incapable of behaving, they are not unbanned.
On the latter, frankly, having to deal with misbehaviour can be a major pain in the ass, particularly when the misbehaver intends it.

I was never banned nor gave cause to be banned.

You've been permuted and then have lied to another moderator to be unmuted, though

[ZellSF]

False, on all counts. To the former, they are unbanned if we feel they deserve another chance to prove they can behave

There's honest mistakes and there's posting shock sites, intentional spamming, pm harassment and trying to ruin games. There are people that do not deserve another chance, at least not until they've had a week long break from Spring to properly learn their mistakes.

Muting people and / or giving them a ban duration of a few hours is not enough, I am not wrong on that count.

[AF]

Swift, we should understand the reasoning behind the moderation of other users because it makes clear what and what isn't allowed and most importantly, why. It is the why that is the most important thing.

I believe transparency is necessary. For one, who will regulate the moderators if the eye of vigilance is always on #main? As well intentioned as you may say you are, the average user has to take your word for it and there are those for which that is simply not enough.

[LordMatt]

Here are some of my thoughts on moderation that I have posted in the private forum in the past:

... For example I think it is highly excessive to kick or mute for a casual "fuck," but if the intent is clearly to stir up trouble a mute or kick would be warranted. Long mutes should be a last, rather than a first option IMO for all mutable offenses, and bans should be avoided if at all possible and only used if there is no other way to stop a user from misbehaving. Being excessively strict or harsh is not productive, as you cannot expect all other mods to agree with you, while at the same time letting everything go isn't helpful either. Some good rules of thumb for things that require immediate moderator actions are 1) Is the current behavior likely to get out of control and degenerate further. 2) Has someone done something, illegal, dangerous, highly unpleasant to other users 3) Is someone being picked on and coming to you for help 4) Is someone wilfully breaking the rules. If none of these conditions are met (and perhaps there are others I haven't thought of) a moderator should be issuing warnings or at the maximum short mutes...

...It's important to keep it from becoming a personal struggle between the moderator and the user, as that can lead to users baiting the moderator and escalation of the situation rather than descalation of the situation. This requires personal self-confidence and security on the part of the moderator to be able to remain in control of and detached from the situation even when it begins to heat up. Thus, the most successful moderation action leaves the misbehaving person with an understanding of what they did wrong and no desire to do it again, rather than with some punishment and a confrontational remark.

It's important for moderators to keep in mind that no one visits the forum or plays this game to see you moderate, so big public displays are really never warranted. Being a moderator is not about you, or what you think. You are simply giving some of your time to help keep the community a safe and pleasant place, and being a moderator not a venue for pursuing personal crusades against swearing, trolling, or whatevering. Hopefully along the way you'll help a few users learn to behave more maturely and appropriately in their interactions with others and in public social settings generally...

Also, the best moderation happens when you just ask a user to stop doing something, and they stop, without the need for a kick/mute/ban.

[Gota]

People get unbanned/unmuted when they ask for it regardless of who they are. Even if they don't, the ban and mute durations are pretty short.

Spring's moderation *wants* you to break the rules, frequently.

False, on all counts. To the former, they are unbanned if we feel they deserve another chance to prove they can behave. If we determine that they are incapable of behaving, they are not unbanned.
On the latter, frankly, having to deal with misbehaviour can be a major pain in the ass, particularly when the misbehaver intends it.

I was never banned nor gave cause to be banned.

You've been permuted and then have lied to another moderator to be unmuted, though

Ha?when was that?

[Neddie]

Please provide examples

I don't know which moderators you have issues with, but I've noted similar issues. I think I've turned in my man card by muting another moderator, actually... not sure about that.

Stop being so passive agressive, it's ridiculous that you'd insult people who are supposed to be your peers in public.

And what exactly are you doing, huuuuuummmmm?

It was actually a joke about when I muted Peet. Lighten up.

[Sleksa]

We generally permaban, or long term ban, only people who show that they amuse themselfs by frustrating and annoying other people, and that they have no intent to stop that type of behavior.

CRAP

. . . ban is determined by a plethora of actions and the character of the individual being disciplined.

T_T goodbye cruel world

[tombom]

And what exactly are you doing, huuuuuummmmm?

It was actually a joke about when I muted Peet. Lighten up.

FUCK I'VE BEEN CAUGHT

[I2:Isaacment_Day]

yo make me a mod

or justr unban my star account so people stop asking me to join noob games ;///

[SwiftSpear]

Swift, we should understand the reasoning behind the moderation of other users because it makes clear what and what isn't allowed and most importantly, why. It is the why that is the most important thing.

I believe transparency is necessary. For one, who will regulate the moderators if the eye of vigilance is always on #main? As well intentioned as you may say you are, the average user has to take your word for it and there are those for which that is simply not enough.

If you're wondering about a specific ban/mute, ask. We can't really put up a public repository of ban information because often times we are dealing with evidence that is private, from private channels and PMs and what not, and additionally, writing up official reports is an awful lot to ask unpaid people who do their job as a hobby. But most moderators have enough discretion to at least give you a reasonable explanation while protecting the interests of the parties involved. Keep in mind, nothing said to you is 100% guaranteed accurate, nor is it the official opinion/stance of the moderation team as a whole, but a moderator will give you the best answer they can within what they deem appropriate information to share and what they personally know.

We take reports of moderation infraction EXTREMELY seriously. While moderation is a team, we don't see ourselfs as an us against them scenario, we all understand VERY clearly that we have a high responsibility. The reality is however, we have never had a major complaint against a moderator go through review and ultimately find that the moderator was at major fault. I'm constantly chatting through issues with other moderators when I question their decision on an issue, and we're constantly taking steps to keep our performance as high quality as possible.

Every member of spring moderation is responsible to protect the well being of the community first, the interests of the community second, and the interests of moderation last. We won't hold votes or surveys or anything as such, as such methods are EXTREMELY unreliable in the digital realm, but pressure from the community is felt VERY strongly by moderation, and we take feedback from spring players generally with the upmost respect.

[AF]

Indeed private information must be protected but those cases where private information is not involved should be recorded and reasoned. If you wish for help for recording this from when in lobby I can sort something out in aflobby and perhaps satirik and the spring lobby team could help too.

Situations such as voting in new moderators, moderator demotions, temp and permabans, and moderation of public channels should all be transparent and viewable to the community, especially since the community may know things that the moderators don't that could have a huge impact on how decisions are made, because generally once these decisions are made its too late and that information's impact is vastly reduced.

[Day]

Peet is overdoing it.

[tombom]

Indeed private information must be protected but those cases where private information is not involved should be recorded and reasoned. If you wish for help for recording this from when in lobby I can sort something out in aflobby and perhaps satirik and the spring lobby team could help too.

Situations such as voting in new moderators, moderator demotions, temp and permabans, and moderation of public channels should all be transparent and viewable to the community, especially since the community may know things that the moderators don't that could have a huge impact on how decisions are made, because generally once these decisions are made its too late and that information's impact is vastly reduced.

In principle I agree, but in reality I think this would be a horrible mess.

[AF]

Why? I would argue that a read only public moderator forum for everything and a private moderator forum for when information that isn't suitable for the public realm is discussed would be appropriate.

As far as Im aware, perma-bans and perma-mutes already have to be listed in the moderator forum from what I am aware of. There should be no added effort beyond the initial 5 minutes in phpbb admin panel to do this, and any argument against this invokes a slew of arguments and suggests that the moderators are either corrupt or have something to hide (and if they do they'd have the private moderator forum anyway).

But moderation should be seen to be happening and most of all it should be explainable and observable. If the reasoning behind decisions involves private personal details then it should say so clearly so as to not make it ambiguous or suggest other motives were involved.

It also means any attempt to maliciously discredit a moderator with false allegations becomes a lot harder.


I have also noticed and been asked about problems with rumors of bannings and unclear obscure moderator intentions in the past, or when moderators given conflicting answers, which has lead to e-drama and preventable moderation. A public moderator forum were moderators can eb observed in action would help this.

[Peet]

Peet is overdoing it.

Yes I agree; you should be able to post shock sites and racial slurs at a whim with no consequences, because you're the all-holy maker of BA.

[Machiosabre]

day made BA?!

[Regret]

Peet is overdoing it.

Apart from anti ascii nazi stuff, he's not overdoing it ;-;

[SwiftSpear]

Why? I would argue that a read only public moderator forum for everything and a private moderator forum for when information that isn't suitable for the public realm is discussed would be appropriate.

As far as Im aware, perma-bans and perma-mutes already have to be listed in the moderator forum from what I am aware of. There should be no added effort beyond the initial 5 minutes in phpbb admin panel to do this, and any argument against this invokes a slew of arguments and suggests that the moderators are either corrupt or have something to hide (and if they do they'd have the private moderator forum anyway).

But moderation should be seen to be happening and most of all it should be explainable and observable. If the reasoning behind decisions involves private personal details then it should say so clearly so as to not make it ambiguous or suggest other motives were involved.

It also means any attempt to maliciously discredit a moderator with false allegations becomes a lot harder.


I have also noticed and been asked about problems with rumors of bannings and unclear obscure moderator intentions in the past, or when moderators given conflicting answers, which has lead to e-drama and preventable moderation. A public moderator forum were moderators can eb observed in action would help this.

Well... IMO, it's up to the bannie if they want information about the ban made public, not the public. I've seen public moderation action request forums in action elsewhere, most notably ban removal forums, they usually end up with the banned person pleading their case and then a good 80% of the community mouthing them off because of it. Now that's not so bad for the cases where the banned person in question is delusional of the effects their actions are having on other people, but in the case where it was unintentional, or a moderation misunderstanding, generally it's just really really insulting.

Additionally, most bans relate to content posted that isn't appropriate for public channels, and that reason alone means that moderation definitely isn't going to post the content anywhere publically. The whole point in making the community safe requires a closed door on some things at the public level. Once again, most of it we're willing to grant you access to if you ask privately, but it's not a public matter, simply put.

Finally, in all honesty, this community is quite large, but already a good chunk of the people qualified to make moderation decisions and rational opinions on the state of moderation are already moderators. There's alot of yesmen and extremists who believe they have a place telling others how it should be done when they fundamentally don't even understand the goal of spring moderation to begin with. Spring moderation, we don't really care about the rules, we made them for specific reasons, not to just be arbitrary. We don't really care about other competing ideals, an arbitrary sense of "right" is great, but it's not our primary concern. The whole point of us being here is the success and propagation of the spring project. All our rules are there to suit what's best for spring and the spring community, all our actions are as such as well.

I've been thinking about ways to make moderator promotion and dismissal more public processes... but I haven't decided on a way I like yet. Fundamentally however, discipline actions will remain private unless the person disciplined in question decides they want to make them public.

[AF]

Which is why I suggested a private forum coupled with a read only public forum. Content inappropriate for public consumption would go in the private forums.

However discussions such as moderator recruitment and regulatory discussions must be made aware to the community as the community very likely has information to contribute, especially since it is the community who will have been involved. How is this to happen when the community is not made aware of these things until it is too late and the decision has been made?

I am not suggesting that we turn spring moderation into a democracy, simply that greater transparency and awareness is needed.