Ba economy discussion

[manored]

After some thinking and experimentation I got to the conclusion that if you have no more mexes to occup and at least 2 or 3 mexes its worth more to save metal for a while and then tech up instead of making adv solars and metal makers until you can tech up winhout saving metal for long. Discuss...

[LordMatt]

Or you could stop porcing and suck some wrecks to tech up (or just spam more to win the game).

[manored]

Spaming more not always wins the game, and actually if you just keep trying to attack with you current economy while the oponend fends your attacks of and upgrades his economy while doing so you will be in trouble... and wrecks are not always that abudant and they often are in places where any builder will die far too fast :)

[Dragon45]

It may be more metal-efficient to suck 400 metal worth of wreck using a 200 metal constructor. You might end up with a net gain, if subtraction still works in your universe.

[Evil4Zerggin]

If you had to wait to save metal to get to T2 you probably don't have the economy to feed T2 production anyhow.

[DemO]

Its much better to invest into t1 econ before going t2 than simply "waiting" as you put it for enough metal on a shitty 3-4 mex t1 economy. By investing into further t1 econ you can still tech by around 10-11 mins and you have the added advantage of having a decent +30/+40 m income and enough energy to continue production at tech 2 before you get your mohos. That includes rushing out a couple of heavy t2 units early before teching mex's (bulldogs or mavericks for example), or simply having enough metal income to build t2 cons and make the first couple of moho's without a huge stall.

But yeah, you seem to think too negatively about attacking. The opponent, given that he is in a similar situation (low number of mex and overall m/e income) will only fend off your attacks if he out micro's or beats you in some kind of static/area control war, or if his teammates come to the rescue him and yours dont.

If you are on the front line in a team game, its definately better to attack and hinder your opponent as much as possible, and perhaps claim a load of wrecks to outspam him at t1 or tech up, rather than to porc to t2 and have limited or no idea of what your opponent is attempting and giving him more opportunities by leaving him unhindered in whatever he is attempting.

By attacking your opponent you more or less force him to react and thus follow a reasonably predictable counter-action (i.e. also making t1 units to fight off your own), whereas if you leave him unscouted and unhindered, he has just as many options as you do, several of which may counter your chosen passive tech up with devastating results.

[Argh]

Why would anybody tech with 3-4 mexes??? That's insane.

6, maybe. But maybe you've already found your opponent's base, and are hammering them- why waste time, if you can clear their outer mexes, thereby putting them into stall, then suck up the metal?

Or go around their com, kill their base, trap their com against mobile stuff you aren't afraid to trade for a dead com's metal worth, back your LLTs with arty and DTs or whatever...

One way or another, make rubble, suck rubble, repeat. An enemy who loses metal every time they meet you is an enemy who is never going to win. Sitting static, when there's any opportunity to suck rubble, is a major mistake, imo.

[Day]

Argh plays 8v8 DSD?

[Neddie]

Argh plays 8v8 DSD?

Only on Friday the 13th.

[manored]

I use a nanoturrets to suck metal from a safe distance or from under the enemy firing range, builders wouldnt be able to survive enough to reach the metal the nano cannot reach I believe.

Thinking better it is worth to make tech 1 economy, but not as something permanent, just as a form of storing away that m in a productible manner to reclaim in the tech up time.

And well im not that negative about attacking, im just carefull: Evertime one attack fails you are giving a economy edge to the enemy that will make his attacks have more chance of success, so depending of the situation I sometimes prefer to stop attacking for a while and just defend while I boost my economy and reclaim his wreck.

If I was already winning the game off course I would continue attacking :) But I rarely manage to gain such upperhand upon a opponent

[LordMatt]

You have to be planning to win, not trying not to lose.

[Boirunner]

You have to be planning to win, not trying not to lose.

This man is wise beyond words. Not that I win a lot...

[[Krogoth86]]

Well the wreck sucking part in a team game is that of the one who goes air. If he then is generous enough to supply his mates with T2 workers you'll get a good economy soon enough...

Besides not going for Advanced Solars at all is going to be bad if you want to use the D-Gun and also things like HLTs in a way you don't have to fear running out of energy in the decisive situation...

[Argh]

Argh plays 8v8 DSD?

Only on Friday the 13th.

And only from midnight to 1A.M., after I've been kicked out've a bar for being there past the "Witching Hour"

Seriously. How many games of BA do you need to play, to know that 3-4 mines is barely enough to sustain a quick rush, and even then, timing is against you, unless you're sucking up metal and posting your com up?

[Saktoth]

You've got the right idea Manored! You've finally figured out that when you cant expand anymore, you shouldnt just sit around and whore metal maker econ.

You're on the right track.

Now all you need to do is jump to the next conclusion- that instead of saving up to tech, or spamming mm's to tech, you keep fighting the enemy. If you play well and depending on the map, you might even beat him without having to tech at all. If you dont, you'll probably get enough territory or reclaim or even a comwreck, and tech smoothly without skipping a beat of aggression.

Stop playing to win in late game when you havent tried winning in early game (Because if you arent winning, you are losing).

[manored]

You have to be planning to win, not trying not to lose.

Im planning to win exploring my ability to defend (survive till my economy is bigger than his) instead of my ability to attack. Sincerely I seen to defend a lot better than I attack :)

In 1vs1 im probally wrong in the tech 2 fast teory, but in a big team im pretty sure that its WIN if one player does what I said while the rest of the team fights all out... like, you need just one factory for the whole team to enjoy the astronomic economy boost of advanced metal extractors, so it would be a small drawback in the start for a huge benefit later on... off course, this depends of the map: If there are enough players for at least 2 to cover ever important area then that is possible, if not that can be risky. (I said 2 because 3x2 isnt that bad but 2x1 is)

[LordMatt]

With that strategy you will lose to someone of equal skill who takes an offensive approach. Also in team games, the players with the largest economy tend to be doing the most attacking.

[Evil4Zerggin]

Im planning to win exploring my ability to defend (survive till my economy is bigger than his) instead of my ability to attack. Sincerely I seen to defend a lot better than I attack :)

I won't say there isn't a time for porc or econ. However, it is a terrible idea to go into battle having decided ahead of time to porc or econ:

1. It makes you predictable. If the enemy knows your playstyle, they can counter it more easily.
2. It removes a very important option. In the late game, it's like playing rock-paper-scissors without scissors. In the early game, it's like playing win-or-fail without win.
3. Even if you are truly better at porcing and econing than attacking, you are going to have to learn to attack if you want to be good. The early game is focused on expansion--which is most like attacking, rather than porcing or econing. If you do not practice attacking, you will not be good at the early expansion state either--which will put you at a disadvantage in the late game, assuming you even survive that long.
4. Furthermore, attacking is the fastest way to learn how to use units effectively in combat--in other words, fighting. If you are good at fighting you can hold off enemies with far inferior forces and crush them with more equal forces.
5. Finally, attacking is more flexible than porcing or econing. An Advanced Solar Collector cannot get up and fight against approaching Flash. A HLT cannot grow legs and raid your enemy's economy. But even if the enemy has a line of defense, you can often circumvent them using artillery, air, subs, finesse, stealth/cloak, or simply by attacking somewhere else.

[Saktoth]

The reason you are better at defending than you are at attacking is because you spend all your time defending and none of it attacking. You get good with experiance. Your probelm is psychological. You think you cannot possibly win by superior use of your available resources (skill, knowledge and intelligence), but by economy, to have more forces than your enemy and overwhelm him with brute strength. It is playing on a blind hope that you have a stronger economic game than he has. This is essentially a single-player side-by-side game of sim city.

Most OTA mods, at least, as multiplayer games first and foremost, are not made towards this playstyle. They are made to encourage players to interact with eachother and in a strategic, tactical wargame.

Your tactic of rushing tech while your allies hold is just rude, especially if you have not communicated your intent. When you win in these situations, its either because the enemy also has porcers or its because your front players are so good that they can beat a superior number of enemies, and will win whenever you choose to support them (So do it early and put them out of their misery).

[manored]

With that strategy you will lose to someone of equal skill who takes an offensive approach. Also in team games, the players with the largest economy tend to be doing the most attacking.

I disagree. I am actual damaging him then he loses his troops against my defenses that are repaired using his metal and thus taking no damage at all, while my economy grows with his standing still. I only resort to this tactic tough then the game reaches the point where both players strugle to push the enemys frontline as there is nowhere else to go, at this point its normal for tech 1 units to become close to useless so I prefer to stop trying to push him back for while to upgrade.

I always warns my allies that I will rush tech 2 then I do so, and I actual ask their opinion about it, so I dont think its rude as it is a team tactic.