Flames brewing...

[AF]

Flozi I think such a comment belongs in a private message and I look forward to your correspondence.

Foreboding, while your intentions are good I fear that this discussion will head the same way these always have. If not into a hellish pit of flames, into a hall of never ending bureaucracy.

To that end there is a large amount of red tape spouting from the philosophical and technicality departments, and they bog down the clerks quite effectively. perfection is desirable but it is rarely achievable and people loose sight of that. You can talk about how to achieve perfection for a long time but while you're talking you're no closer to perfection than when you started.

I will take this time to say nice and clearly that my viewpoint on TA based mods is not a negative one. I have no issue with BA CA FunTA or AA and their existence. I am not Anti TA, after all why would I fix lua gadgets for XTA and BA, model and texture 3 XTA units, host the TA3D engine on my website, play XTA almost exclusively for months at a time, if my intentions where to destroy the TA fan base?

What I do have a problem with is the monopolies and taboos that hold back spring in the name of TA. Perpetuated in order to keep TA at the top, these problems hold spring back. They are misguided and are easily the number 1 factor holding back the TA based mods themselves, a self inflicted wound to BA/CA/AA and the Spring community as a whole, crippling efforts to bring in more users and perpetuating institutions that damage spring as a whole.

Sadly many people do not see this or choose not to believe it and find it easier to believe I'm just AntiTA and attack me for lulz.

But suffice to say I can see things changing. I myself have taken great lengths to make sure change does indeed occur for the very survival of spring itself, but by no means am I alone. By pushing for innovation in areas such as lobbies, external tools, the main site, and other areas I believe that the wheels have been set in motion to free up a lot of 'cruft' we have accumulated and speed things up in general, lowering the barrier of entry to this community and making things fairer in general.

Things over in cookie land are not as people perceive, and its saddening to see comments lamenting the lack of tools which I myself have already incorporated long ago into time lines and road maps. A lot of feature requests aren't being given, a lot of bug reports unnoticed and not corrected, and people are taking the long route unnecessarily when a little co-operation can go a long way.



So for the moment you can continue navigating your red tape and getting frustrated with things. Argue endlessly and come to conclusions then scrap the optimal solution because of a vague technicality in favour of a new solution that works in theory but in all practicality is useless. Either way I will be there behind the scenes actually doing things, and come a few weeks time things will start to shift as the things I have done in the last few months start to take effect.

Now if you'd please I've just ordered 35 terry pratchett books from amazon

[Boirunner]

I just want to say I love LordMatt. If I didn't like to troll so much I'd post what he posts.

[Forboding Angel]

Well as I stated earlier, I believe that the changes in the installer are going to make the playing field as even as it's going to get, and as lordmatt said, original content mods with single player campaigns would do much better that those without.

Regardless... The discussion so far has been quite civil, and I think it would as a whole be much more constructive if it stayed that way, and at the end of the day things might even get cleared up.

I'm not sure what ppl have against you AF. There have been times when I have personally gotten miffed about you, but on the other hand most things i can look past and into the future. Personally, I would say that excitement and extreme passion end up obscuring your motives as far as other people are concerned. I myself am often misunderstood, and I realized early on that there wasn't much point in explaining myself all the time. If someone wants to take something the wrong way, they will and there is little that can be done about that, which is unfortunate, but that is simply the way that it is. On the other hand I have noticed that when people lash out is is generally from a position of insecurity (and not always unforunded either) concerning something that they care a lot about.

Sometime giving someone the benefit of the doubt can relieve tensions throughout.

[AF]

I agree, lately I have realised that actions are a far better tool for dealing with discussions than posting, because discussions lead on to just more discussion and the chances of falling down into a pit of flames are much greater than actually doing something and being recognized for the attempt. After all which is better? Another 20 page thread or a slightly better method of doing things?

I personally believe that lordmatts installer is not the fix, but a change in attitude, a new road heading somewhere else. It is more of a catalyst than a destination, and it exposes a flaw in the system. Mainly the flaw that it is not the installers responsibility, but that of the lobby and front-end.

Eitherway the current state of affairs has existed for quite a while and it is not a stable state. It has given rise to numerous problems and drives an undercurrent of frustration in a lot of people. What we are seeing now is the beginnings a shift in attitude that are directly undermining the state of affairs and moving spring. Naturally some will oppose that shift, and the installer is the newest of those manifestations of the shifts.

[Warlord Zsinj]

As a content developer, I'd have to say that part of the problem is jealousy. I can be quite honest that I am reasonably jealous of the player attention that the alphabet soup mods get.

I mean, sure, I'm with Smoth and co in recognising the inherent rewards of creating something, working on art, achieving, even getting a few people to enjoy what I produce. But if I had the choice between three people playing the work I've slaved over, and thousands of people playing the work I've slaved over, I'm going to pick the latter every time. It is rewarding seeing lots of people playing your game, and feeling passionately about products you have produced, and decisions you have made. Further, the jealousy doesn't come without the feeling that the people who are making TA variants simply aren't quite putting as much into their mods as you are, and don't really have to think as widely about gameplay because they have already got an (excellent) secured formula with a loyal userbase.

But, beyond pure jealousy, there is a sort of cynical fatalism that tinges (atleast my) thoughts regarding the alphabet soup mods.
I think that ultimately, while mods such as AA and XTA more or less made Spring what it is today, and are not bad games at all (so creators, don't see this as a slight towards your work), I think ultimately they may well be killing Spring.

The reason for this is that it is difficult for them to really diversify beyond what is there. They have a winning formula, and have done really well out of it - but they aren't bringing anything incredibly new to the table. Sure, they're still being updated - but that's a process of refining and perfecting that is purely working out the bounds of what is there already - and is expressly for the benefit for existing, rather then prospective players. Despite having modern art systems for years, the most popular mods still make use of 3do's, and are still essentially *TA.
Now, I think CA is certainly pushing boundaries; and I really respect the work that they are doing. But it is still doing so within the safe bounds of the TA universe, and many of the changes made are simply moving within the realm of TA.

And that is not, and hasn't been a Bad Thing. As I said, the TA mods are all good games. However, they ultimately can not bring anything to the table that will significantly increase the lifespan of Spring. Their success and loyal fanbase means that Spring will be popular for quite a while to come, and will linger with a loyal core fanbase for ages (as TA did), I don't think that it will ever really be able to increase the aggregate size of it's user base from now on.

The only things that I believe can increase Spring's aggregate player size and make Spring more popular then it is currently are new-content, custom-built mods. Now, the source of of the earlier mentioned fatalism lies in the fact that custom-built mods can never really hope to get the attention they need to establish themselves because they invariably get muscled out by all the *TA mods in terms of popularity. So you're caught in a catch-22 situation where Spring needs new life in order to grow and expand, but new life cannot really grow in an environment over-sown with TA's progeny.

EDIT:
Regarding the installer, I also doubt that is going to really change things. It's a good first step - but if I log onto the lobby and see 100 BA games and 3 S44 games, I'm going to wonder what this BA is that everyone is playing. There's more support for new players, more knowledgeable people, more games going when you want them, etc, etc.

[BaNa]

So you're caught in a catch-22 situation where Spring needs new life in order to grow and expand, but new life cannot really grow in an environment over-sown with TA's progeny.

I disagree with this. The high popularity of TA-based mods does not mean original content mods (lets call them OC mods) can't achieve a similar popularity. The thing is, people who play OC mods seem to assume that if there where no TA mods, the ~200 people logged into spring would play their stuff. Nay. You would be better off assuming that the majority of these players simply won't play OC stuff, even if they got free sex for it. Just like how within the TA circle, some players won't play 1v1 or maps besides SM.

OC mods need to advertise themselves better, both to players for whom spring itself is unknown, and players arriving to spring. Our top Google hit needs more love, this will not do. There should be a big blazing button that takes you to the mods page, where the content creators can advertise themselves.

[AF]

By attempting to preserve TA dominance some users are stifling the popularity of spring and thus in turn, the TA mods theyre trying to protect. A circle of self inflicted damage.

[BaNa]

By attempting to preserve TA dominance

explain.

[AF]

Some people feel things are fine as is with the primary mod syndrome and any attempt to change things is an attempt to destroy the primary mod utterly.

Sadly these people truly believe that attempts to change attitudes and represent things fairly are actually attempts to annihilate BA. You can see such examples of this in threads where BA players try to stop new features because they assume it will be put in BA. They drag their feet to halt discussions and try to stop things from moving on in order to protect BA, or whatever mod everyones playing now.

But in trying to protect it they're actually causing more harm than good. Generating eDrama and driving people away, halting much needed progress on topics such as websites and lobby development, making motivation plummet in other mods, and blocking new features just incase they appear in their mod.

[Pressure Line]

and blocking new features just incase they appear in their mod.

But that would be really unbalanced!

Unbalanced in what? BA? Yeah probably, in Pressure Line's ubar mod of doom? No.

A lot of people think that Spring = BA (some even think that spring SHOULD = BA to the exclusion of all else, but i'll leave that for another time) and this does stifle development in the ways that AF described. If
Zsinj needs jetpack troopers for SWS is "but flying peewees would be so imba" a valid reason to stomp on the idea? hell no.

Lets face it, Noize Day and Slek have all said it multiple times, BA is feature complete, NOTHING IS CHANGING. If Caydr wants to make Krogoths T1 and make them fly, more power to him, will it be balanced? unlikely. is it a good idea, not really. does it impact BA in any way whatsoever? NO.

If you dont like a feature for technical reasons, by all means, speak out. If your only objection is "will maek BA imba" shut the *$#& up and get the hell out, its never going to get included anyway so why worry about it?

im sure i had a point, but im not sure it was a convincing one x:

[Zpock]

Lets face it, Noize Day and Slek have all said it multiple times, BA is feature complete, NOTHING IS CHANGING.

Maybe this is why BA is the most popular? Pretty much all other mods are more or less a work in progress and some even unreleased. The only one that comes to mind as being close to a more or less finished serious mod that plays well is EE... and I think it was almost there, before, things happened... people where playing it and some actual strategies and stuff was developing... and I firmly believe that soon (or later) it will return to glory again. It's in a low profile makeover as far as I understand.

Another thing that comes to mind is that EE is as far as I understand designed to just be a good game... It doesn't try to follow some rules and ideas set by anime shows, history or popular science fiction, realism, so it doesn't have to make all those compromises and just concentrates on being a good game.

There's really no point to play a lot in order cultivate your skill and strategies in an unfinished mod... except for helping with testing of course. I mean who wants to be really good at a game with really rough, maybe broken, balance that is certain to change...

[LordMatt]

I agree, lately I have realised that actions are a far better tool for dealing with discussions than posting, because discussions lead on to just more discussion and the chances of falling down into a pit of flames are much greater than actually doing something and being recognized for the attempt. After all which is better? Another 20 page thread or a slightly better method of doing things?

I for one have appreciated the AF of the last few months over previous incarnations of AF.

I personally believe that lordmatts installer is not the fix, but a change in attitude, a new road heading somewhere else. It is more of a catalyst than a destination, and it exposes a flaw in the system. Mainly the flaw that it is not the installers responsibility, but that of the lobby and front-end.

+1 I am very limited in what I can do with an installer inside NSIS code. For example, I would love to give each mod the ability to give screenshots and a more extended description to get players interested in it, but this does not seem to be possble. If AF made some kind of frontend that made single player campaigns as easy to use as they are in professional games (and made it openly available to all lobbies, not just his own) he would instantly become one of the coolest people in the spring community. But we should all remember that roadmaps, timelines, and plans for the future are not solid and may never happen, and so should not be promoted as achievements or certainties.

As I said, the TA mods are all good games. However, they ultimately can not bring anything to the table that will significantly increase the lifespan of Spring. Their success and loyal fanbase means that Spring will be popular for quite a while to come, and will linger with a loyal core fanbase for ages (as TA did), I don't think that it will ever really be able to increase the aggregate size of it's user base from now on.

I fundamentally disagree with this viewpoint. OTA is a very old game, and a majority of people who play spring now were not OTA players originally (though that may come as a shock to you oldtimers here). Spring itself has had very little marketing, TA content or original content, and many of its current players have come by word of mouth. There are plenty of young gamers who play spring now (e.g. Lionheart) who never played OTA and are now top spring players. There is no reason why new players will stop liking the winning formula of Total Annihilation (It holds true in commercial games to: Just think how many versions of C&C there have been over the years). I think a compelling single player campaign and good marketing would do just as much for the BA (and co) playerbase as it would for an original content mod.

This is not to say we should not give original content mods the opportunity to grow and thrive (for example by making them available through the installer), however I think casting original content mods as the salvation of spring is evidence of hubris on the part of those who are creating them.

Now that spring is running much better for everyone (less crashes and less desyncs) hopefully there will be less people saying some feature shouldn't be implemented because it won't do anything for BA. I think some of that attitude was because people felt the devs should have other priorities than making features for original content mods (i.e. getting the game to work properly for everyone).

[Zpock]

If only we had something like:

[AF]

I for one have appreciated the AF of the last few months over previous incarnations of AF.

Thankyou ^_^ And hopefully the AF of 2008 will be an improvement on that.

But we should all remember that roadmaps, timelines, and plans for the future are not solid and may never happen, and so should not be promoted as achievements or certainties.

Indeed, however we have the capacity to get where we want to go, and if we all worked towards it then we would get there so much faster, but people seem to want to sit on the fence for the moment.

While I would say that any effort of mine towards those goals would indeed be a part of AFLobby and not standalone, I am in the process of makign AFLobby more and more modular and extendible such that at some point the GUI may be turned off and the program sued as a bot or autohost framework, or as a basis for another lobby program or tool. As such someone may go through and disable all the modules that the front end program does not depend on.

But as always user input is a valuable commodity we are seeing less and less of.

Change has already occurred in the engine to a great extent. The changes needed now are in the supporting infrastructure of the site, the lobby, and the various tools working in conjunction.

[Warlord Zsinj]

That's a fair criticism, and certainly my view is extremely biased by a) I am making my own content and b) as mentioned earlier, do not feel purely gentlemanly about the huge success of BA at all times. But, I wasn't really trying to give over a balanced viewpoint, simply explain my opinion of things as a content-maker.

However, I stand by my point that as a "feature complete" game, BA can go no further then where it has already reached in terms of the product it is attempting to deliver. It will balance, perfect, and hopefully become a lot prettier as time goes on, but it is not revolutionising.

Most games do not last forever. They will have popularity spurts near release, sometimes gain a second wind later on, but generally all slowly peeter off. Depending on the quality of the game, they can last a long time. Spring and BA are both excellent, so I expect it to last for a while - but not indefinitely.

The games which are surviving are either games with such an enormous critical mass of players that it basically keeps self-perpetuating (starcraft, WoW), and games that are able to innovate, update and refresh themselves.

Spring has to fall into the latter category. If you consider Spring as an engine that has the potential for numerous games to be played out on it, then for it to grow, survive and attract new members, it needs to diversify and introduce new game mechanisms. If you consider Spring as BA (you as a general qualifier, not LordMatt), as many people do, then my point of view equally becomes as nonsensical as someone who believes that the sole purpose of Spring is new-content mods (which it isn't. Spring would probably be dead without *A mods).

My belief of the survival of Spring doesn't really fall into the category that everyone currently playing is an OTA veteran - though I think significant amount are. It is more along the lines of "Here is one game that is feature complete, but is essentially the same (I know I risk stoking flames here, but it is not intended offensively) as most of the other TA mods, all of which have been played out for the last few years, and arguably have been played out since 1997. You've essentially got a bunch of ice cream mods. They're all flavoured differently - you've got chocolate flavour, vanilla flavour, caramel flavour - but they're all still ice cream. Some people swear by some, other people swear by others, some like to dabble and mix it up. But it's ultimately all ice cream, and sometimes you need to have something a little different, even if it is pretty close to ice cream, like gelati. Sometimes you need something totally different, like an apple. Man, I'm hungry, and it's too hot here...

[Scratch]

Well I can tell some people are here to talk just because they love to talk. I guess I am too.

I think all this criticism and potential flame wars are good, its better than having a dead forum and frequenting it every day or two I find this forum is less active than I would desire so I have taken it upon myself to start a couple of fights. At least people are using it now.

It's good to see these fights going on, it tells me not everybody here is just ass kissing.

On a constructive note though, probably having an external design tool would be better for Spring. Creators are overwhelmed with work, having been one, if you don't have creation tools you will spend the majority of your time on non-creative work.

My opinion is an external creation program should be made. If a good one is made, more people will pick it up and try use it, and the community will grow faster. My suggestion would be to make a mission designer first, because single player is badly needed in Spring for all the noobs. And it would be kickass to play through a new single player mission now and then.

[AF]

Scratch, causing fights can demotivate and drive people away. Either way it is not conducive to a healthy forum atmosphere or a sustainable community. If the spring forums aren't active enough for your tastes there's a lobby full of channels and an Internet full of forums.

Look at the glest forums. By our standards glest is dead and has been for quite a while, despite popular opinion to the contrary and an active developer base.

[Machiosabre]

heres my view about what happens every single time an argument about ta vs other mods breaks out breaks out:

guy1: snide remark about TA mods with possible complaint about few players for other mod.

guy2: points out that without TA spring might as well be a forum.

guy1: BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWW

now you can argue guy2 is the problem but if the guy1s would stop bitching about ta at every opportunity this problem wouldn't exist.

case in point: http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... 3&start=20

pressure posts about ta players

scratch makes a pretty harsh remark, but keep in mind pressure pretty much insulted everyone who plays TA mods.

pressure flips his lid.

[DZHIBRISH]

Ah.
The engine should not be affiliated with TA.
TA based mods do suffer from it.
Many players out there think spring is just TA 3d.
What we really need is a name change!is that at all possible by the way?to change the name of the project.
We need a new nice name for the engine and the mass of modes that you can play on it.
The name now does not remind of startegy gaming nor does it remind you of any mods played on the engine.
We need a new name that will be adequate and compellling to players that never tried to play mods on this engine and it needs to be intuitive to at least a certain degree.
Together with lobbies making download of all things spring related posssible directly through them with ease spring ,i am sure will get an
influx of new players.

[Peet]

It's good to see these fights going on, it tells me not everybody here is just ass kissing.

That sounds ridiculously like Raneti.