Flames brewing...

[Forboding Angel]

It is becoming appearent to me that a huge flamefest is brewing just under the surface here. It seems to happen periodically as content developers eventually get fed up and release some steam. Personally I think that all that does is further crack an already fragmented community, so the purpose of this post is to get it all out into the open so that mebbie the pressure cooker can let off some steam without being potentially dangerious.

As many of you know I am the *ahem, cough* author of Fun:TA, which is finished and exceeded all my original goals etc etc etc and I am very happy with it. That said, I wanted to create my own game which is why I started working with Evolution RTS, which many of you may have seen before. The plans for evolution are vast as well, and win or lose, I still will have had a lot of fun in making it.

I said all that to make the point that I have a particularly interesting viewpoint on the TA vs everything else argument. Recently a prominent member of this community and a good friend of mine got very upset at the fact that "I was defending TA based mods". THe simple truth is that I was defending their right to exist. It's obvious that atari could really care less at this point about the copyrighted content and it could even be argued that TA is becoming abandonware (which as most of us know presents it's own issues). I think that TA based mods have a right to exist, however, I do object to them being packaged with the installer along with he so called "Base Content". As far as the way the installer is being handled now, I think is pretty much perfect. It doesn't shove away TA based mods, but it doesn't make them first and foremost either. It does give original content mods a chance to be noticed and played, if only a little bit. Also there is the fact that I can tell anyone to dl the spring installer and dl my game as well as any others they would like to try. Needless to say, I am very excited about how this new release will affect everything.


Concerning the rift between TA vs Whatever Else:
The only way things will ever get better is if both sides come to the table with lenient intentions. What I mean by that is the fact that TA modders need to realize the amount of time and effort put into original content modules, and original content makers need to realize that to them, the continual balancing act of TA based mods is also a lot of work. Case in point - FUNTA was possibly the msot frustrating thing I have ever attempted to do in my entire life. It took nearly a week of grunt work to get it to where anything was even close to useable, and for someone who didn't know a whole lot about what they were doign it was very tough for me... THat's what I mean when I say that original content makers need to understand that to the individual TA modders, it is a lot of work for them, because most of the time, they don't know how to do much else than what they already do.

Likewise, TA modders have to realize the sheer amount of effort required to make one's own game. I SLAVED away on Evolution for 6 months and didn't do anything else worth noting in that period. That said, once the initial hump is crossed over, it gets considerably easier.


TA modders need to come to understand WHY original content developers seem to despise their work. The simple truth is that maintaining a game != making a game. Making a game is much harder, however, TA modders have to does with small problems at every point, which can end up being very frustrating. Regardless of all that, I think the thing that tends to gall original content makers the most, is when TA modders and/or fans try to act superior, which from the other side of the fence is in many ways ludicrus.


The rift seems to ever be getting larger. The danger is that if content developers truly leave, the spring will die. Another danger is the truth is the fact that TA based mods not only stereotype spring, but they also strangle growth. Anyone who chooses BA over supcom (as a new user to both) for reasons that are not performance related, is daft. The good thing is, some people DO choose BA or something else on the spring engine over supcom, which is very encouraging. Obviously people are not flocking to spring as they do supcom, but at least we are doing some things right.





Now. Here is the meat. Does anyone truly have any suggestions as to how this community can be united for the good of all things spring, or is spring doomed to have segmentations for the rest of it's existence?

[Boirunner]

The community is not divided, its pretty unified. We all play TA based mods.

[Forboding Angel]

tl;dr

Fixed

[Boirunner]

I read your post again. I stand by my point.

[Regret]

less useless flamey comments such as this

edit: to mod: at least sign so I know who to blame

[Forboding Angel]

You haven't been around for the cyclic outbursts that happen. And lately I've seen in increase in hostility, so sometimes soon it's probably likely to blow again.

That was the point, to try and keep it from spilling over.

Not drama, facts. It's what happens around here over and over and over........

Or would you prefer that some random asshole gets his head ripped off for seemingly no reason? <<< Is what usually starts the cycle over again.

[Caydr]

Segmented community is not a doomed community, as long as none of those segments play speed metal. No joke, no sarcasm, that map is cancer and teaches people how NOT to play the game.

[Regret]

less useless flamey comments such as this

Excuse me? He asked for a solution and I provided one. I was polite and didn't insult anyone.

[tombom]

The only people causing problems on the forums are the content creators who seem to have troubles with restraining themselves from posting if they're really angry. Most of your head was nice and level-headed but then you have the occassional sentences like:

Anyone who chooses BA over supcom (as a new user to both) for reasons that are not performance related, is daft. The good thing is, some people DO choose BA or something else on the spring engine over supcom, which is very encouraging.

that are annoying enough to cause flamewars, because it says BA is objectively worse than Supcom and that it's lucky people choose to play Spring even though the most famous mod is crap, which isn't a great thing.

[SinbadEV]

Dudes, do not take a topic like this as permission to stoke the flames...

Anyways, I'VE been here long enough to see the cycle of stupid and we've lost a few good modders/developers along the way.

[tombom]

Dudes, do not take a topic like this as permission to stoke the flames...

Anyways, I'VE been here long enough to see the cycle of stupid and we've lost a few good modders/developers along the way.

I wonder how many good players EE has lost due to the angry, unhelpful manner of the people who reply to newbies about it.

[Forboding Angel]

The only people causing problems on the forums are the content creators who seem to have troubles with restraining themselves from posting if they're really angry. Most of your head was nice and level-headed but then you have the occassional sentences like:

Anyone who chooses BA over supcom (as a new user to both) for reasons that are not performance related, is daft. The good thing is, some people DO choose BA or something else on the spring engine over supcom, which is very encouraging.

that are annoying enough to cause flamewars, because it says BA is objectively worse than Supcom and that it's lucky people choose to play Spring even though the most famous mod is crap, which isn't a great thing.

Wait a second. If you read it again you will realize that that's not what i saw saying.
Ok look at it this way. PPL looking at games see graphics, not gameplay. BA is centered around gameplay and not graphics (as sleksa has demonstrated time and time again). Therefore, a casual onlooker would laugh at BA compared to supcom at the casual glance. I am not attempting to insinuate that BA needs to do anything about it. The post isn't about BA. What I was saying is that it is VERY good that some people look at both and choose to try spring out. That is very very good. That means that we are doing something right. I would simply like to see this community come together for once, as opposed to igniting itself.

The only people causing problems on the forums are the content creators who seem to have troubles with restraining themselves from posting if they're really angry.

THis is actually very very true, but you're only hitting on one side of the issue. Content creaters generally get harrassed repeatedly, which is a cause of the above. Neither side is non-guilty.

/me sniffs thread... hmmm forb is dousing himself in gasoline, I can smell it, but isn't the bullseye on your nuts a bit much?

Say what you like, but posts like yours are not helping soothe tension. Besides, I ain't skeerd

[Forboding Angel]

Dudes, do not take a topic like this as permission to stoke the flames...

Anyways, I'VE been here long enough to see the cycle of stupid and we've lost a few good modders/developers along the way.

I wonder how many good players EE has lost due to the angry, unhelpful manner of the people who reply to newbies about it.

Once again, this is a good point. EE has a large sore spot with supporters because of the amount of crap they and it have taken over the course of development. Largely due to continued harassing of PRO *A mod only supporters, which is pointless anyway. You would think that people would want as many games as possible available for play. Kinda like steam without all the crappiness.

Sadly, most of the time it prolly just comes down to overegoness. I can say that it really frustrates me when people mistake my being really excited about something for ego. And it happens a lot.

[LordMatt]

As far as the way the installer is being handled now, I think is pretty much perfect.

Thanks for the kind words.

I think the original content makers could be a little more thankful to TA though. If TA hadn't existed, spring would never have been made and you wouldn't get the opportunity to make your mods here. As I have said many times before, certain people in this community make themselves targets for trolls looking for their daily lols, and, really, the best thing those people can do is to ignore those trolls and focus on their work, which, as you say FA, is very difficult. Not only do they have to make their entire game from scratch, but they have to promote it effectively if they want to get anyone playing it.

Another thing that original content mods need is compelling single player campaigns if they want to be successful. BA and co. ride on the success and playerbase created by the OTA campaigns. Since none of the original content mods has undertaken anything similar yet, it honestly is not surprising to me that none has come close to challenging TA mods for dominance on the server. It is unclear to me how these original content makers intend to build a multiplayerbase from scratch, when I don't know of any commercial RTS that has taken that approach.

This is not the fault of the TA modders, players, or engine developers, however, and the original content makers must realize that effective promotion of their games (including a single player campaign) is their own responsibility, not the community's. If they find themselves jealous of TA mods' successes, involve themselves in flamewars, get fed up, and leave, that is their own problem, not the community's. There are plenty of original content makers who do not follow that path, however, so I think it is unfair for you to lump them all together and face them off against the TA modders and players. Certain original content makers have some jealousy issues (or whatever), and may decide to leave because of them and that is their choice.

[FLOZi]

To be honest, most of the 'original content makers' don't really have any issue with the TA mods and we are perfectly content to do our own thing and not complain about their dominance. (Though we may occasionally gripe that they ARE DOIN' IT WRONG )

imo the main offender is AF, and his words and actions cast a shade over Smoth, Argh and others.

[Neddie]

Well, we do play TA based mods often, but I find other games more to my taste. Care for some more KP, Boi?

[Forboding Angel]

I think your points are reasonable matt, if not outright valid.

I agree about singleplayer campaigns. Believe me, I have tried to teach myself how to do it with very little success. Coupled with the fact that AI's must be recompiled every release is really burdening.

On the singleplayer front, it almost seems as there is no real way to win. I dunno if linking missions tegether (per se) is technically possible, and frustratingly enough, the devs have "better" things to do than work on making singleplayer more accessable. So on that front, I wouldn't put the sole blame on content makers either. Thor seems to be the only one who is competant with making single player missions, and after reading his tutorial I felt very very dumb, because I lost the flow shortly into it. 5 hours later I still had gotten no further.

I may be the exception here... But I tend to like singleplayer the most in any game. For the same reason that I like multiplayer compstomps more than vanilla pvp. Beating down some horribly unfair AI advantage is a lot of fun for me, and I really enjoy finding the ways to do it.

As far as single player in spring being compelling... If I were able to project a story with pictures ingame at the start of every mission I truly believe I could accomplish it. Atm, the biggest thing is the simple truth that making a mission for spring is akin to carving your spleen out with a butterknife :/

[Neddie]

I'm still looking for somebody willing to take on the tasks of implementing an external, GUI-oriented mission developer, a campaign loader, and full documentation. Trust me, most people balk when I break the ice on it.

[Forboding Angel]

And before anyone gets mad at me concering my support (and sometimes lack of support) of *A mods...

I agree with what Matt said above, and I am attempting to do something about it by being proactive instead of only griping. Yes I do my share of whining, but I also realize that it is my responsibility to do something about it.

If we could get a mission developing program, I'm pretty sure I would have a heartattack (the good kind, not the bad ones...).

[LordMatt]

Well I agree that the support for single player games is not that great, but it is the original content makers who want (and need it most) whereas many developers got involved with spring through multiplayer. I think we need some dev to get excited about improving singleplayer support, but we might have to wait for that as long as we waited for the new GUI. I know it's tough, but for an engine completely created through people's volunteer time, it might be up to those very same original content makers to create a proper interface for single player missions and campaigns.