Prometheus Spawning Grounds

[Machiosabre]

I think if you make all the units look the same per side you'd just end up with supcom, what I love about TA is that each unit is like a design on its own,
its not just robot>big robot>super robot
its: WOO AK, BAM! Can and GRAAA Sumo!

course every unit that uses the same weapon could easily have something to recognize that and still be unique.

(just a reply to the lego idea, in the art the units look very different already.)

[Treeform]

i think the lego idea would work if we stated at first most units will look the same but as time goes on the lego set will be more unique and people will figure out how to work with the lego set better making unique units.

[zorbawic]

Personally, I'd like a mix of the Treeform's Lego style and the normal style.
Make 1 big texture that contains all common/basic shapes. If You feel like there should be something more/new/different just make another small 128x128 or 256x256 texture which could be used by 1 or more parts of the model. When more unit makers make enough additional textures merge them into another 1 big texture and make an "expansion pack".

This way could actually lead to having higher quality textures/units at relatively low cost as others could reuse those new textures in other new units.

[Pressure Line]

Personally, I'd like a mix of the Treeform's Lego style and the normal style.
Make 1 big texture that contains all common/basic shapes. If You feel like there should be something more/new/different just make another small 128x128 or 256x256 texture which could be used by 1 or more parts of the model. When more unit makers make enough additional textures merge them into another 1 big texture and make an "expansion pack".

This way could actually lead to having higher quality textures/units at relatively low cost as others could reuse those new textures in other new units.

spring doesnt do submaterials.

[Treeform]

we'll force it :)

but in light of that having a building lego set, air lego set, tank lego set, bots lego set, ship lego set, amfibean lego set, hover lego set with 2048^2 texture each might work better.

[ironized]

that lego idea would be sweet.

i could imagine that you could design your own set of units before game.
therefore there would be alot of avaible units.

but spring engine might be like 'oh stuff this shit'

[Warlord Zsinj]

It's been done before in... Earth2150? It was awful.

[Wolf-In-Exile]

The main problem I see with this "lego" approach is the visible differences in texture quality, especially where parts are scaled to a different size.

Of course, everything is dependent on how much texture space is allocated for each bit, but it'll take alot more effort to manage the UVs.

Like Warlord Zsinj pointed out, this sort of system has been implemented in Earth 2150 and its successors, and suffice to say i'm not a fan because it gives the units a "cookie cutter" feel to them, and lack individuality.

That's not to say that recycled parts are bad, indeed smaller details such as antennas, gun barrels and so forth can be recycled without being too noticeable, but the bigger bits, such as a tank's chassis and turret should have a unique model and texture to go along with it.

This is far from just an aesthetic issue. Uniquely different unit 'silhouettes' promote easier recognition. In an RTS game like Spring, the differences from 2 similar units could only be a matter of several pixels at the average zoom level that players most probably use.

[Pressure Line]

you're all missing the real 'low hanging fruit' here.

we already have a system for putting pre-textured model pieces together. its called 3do. if someone *cough* Fang *cough* were to 'gift' a full set of nice 3do textures to the spring community...

anyone with eyes and a decent sense of what looks good and what doesn't (and has a fair whack of free time) can texture up 3do models, and even better, if you design a nice missile launch module, you can post it up here and people can whack it straight onto their units, with no hassles!

just something to think about

[Pressure Line]

Also 3do is great, until you realize you cant have anything that isnt almost perfectly square/rectangular on the geometry, otherwise you will get texture warping which is the main reason why some of my 3do textures look bad. s3o is superior in everyway possible, except possibly in speed, but that depends on poly count, on a low poly unit 3do texturing is fast, on anything above 150 ish faces, it becomes an utter chore. What we really need is a mult material system like most other games have, whereby multiple textures can be applied to single objects.. this would be best..

i like EE, it has its own style (in terms of spring stuff at least) and it looks great.

at the moment 3do is the only submaterial-like system we have. its sub-optimal, yes. but if using it to create a 'box of bits' for models will stem the tide of half-baked BA forks... im all for it.

[smoth]

I have already said, a baljillion times, the gundam 3do textures are available to anyone who wants them. Not all of them are usefull but many of them are very nifty.

[SwiftSpear]

I'll add my 2cents. I think really, the lego bits idea is the only way to go... not necessarily as abstract as ONLY having small component parts, but what we really DO need is a language, exactly as arne said. Something that is more than just single unit designs, something that allows for modelers to take the concept art and abstract it to suit different roles, because ultimately what we are discussing here is a system where we design what units will look like before we know what kind of units we really need.

Units need roles, BA has hundreds of unit/counter unit mechanics and usage categories, TA did as well, albeit often less effectively designed. A system where we have X tank, and Y kbot and Z truck before we have decided how X and Y will interact will ultimately not come out well polished, so we need the flexibility to give X tank a different gun and a different role if it doesn't play well in testing, or even in theory before hand. The only way that's easy is if we have a consistent visual style for chassi modification, gun swapping (probably) and what not. It's mostly about deciding about what kind of technologies fit into the universe before hand and then deciding what they look like. What does an armor plate look like? What kind of guns are possible and what do they look like? What does a power unit look like? How do different designers from different races set up these components? If the concept art contains that kind of information I can create a unit that looks nothing like anything ever officially put on paper that will still hold to the visual style, and thus hold to the visual standard of the rest of the project.

[Pressure Line]

i think swift is onto something here, if im reading him right (im probably not, but this deserves to be in this discussion as well) all we *really* need is a set of concept artz.

something to tell a modeller "ok, a laser cannon looks like this. a missile launch pod looks like this. etc etc"

the *best* solution comes with submaterials. as long as they are used correctly they become an extremely powerful tool. that way modeler A can build a laser cannon, modeler B can build a tank hull, and mod-maker C can come along and say "hai guise, i need an early-mid game laser tank" and grab the laser cannon and tank hull, scale appropriately, apply the textures and away he goes.

But then C decides, "oh no, a laser cannon doesnt suit this stage of the game, i want a rocket launcher for this tank" its not a huge pain in the rear to switch out the laser for a missile pod, because modder C doesnt have to redo the UV map and try to fit all the pieces of the unit back onto a texture.

This is currently possible with 3do units, but i refuse to be held responsible for the results obtained. **edit** unless teh results are good in which case the credit is mien!

[BaNa]

stuff

I may have misunderstood the original lego idea. Having premade armour plates and guns and wheels and radar thingies and power boxes is cool. I thought we where going towards generic chassis + gun combo, which i think is lose (i really don't want to badmouth EE, but that is the leading complaint about it's unit design).

It's like the guys who make the lego set are making a meta-mod, a make-your-own-mod mod. :)

[Pressure Line]

exactly Bana. while this is *possible* to do with single-tex per-unit, its hard work, because it involves a lot of shuffling reworking of uvmaps and texture pieces, to the point where it would be easier to find a dedicated texturer for your project and have him/her just redo the lot (which takes time and effort, and lots of it, which defeats the purpose)

[Pressure Line]

i said it before here that i would be willing to administer a model repository. and i will repeat it again, if people *really* want something like this i am willing to set up a place to house and display models.

and i have thought of a way to get around the lack of sub-material support in Spring for now. it would involve designating certain areas of the texture space for certain parts of the unit. not ideal i know, but unless someone can come up with a more elegant solution (or wants to do 3do textures and release them with the models)

like i said. if people really want this, i am willing to administer it and organise webspace for it. let me know.

[Treeform]

Getting around the lack of multi texture in the engine is a loose. I think we just need to get better tools. If each lego part has a square 256x256 texture its easy to staple them together during s3o writing.

[yuritch]

Yes, that's easy if we go with the shassis + turret approach. 1 256x256 shassis + 1 256x256 turret + something else (radars etc.) = 512x512 UV map. However, if we go with smaller parts like wheels, guns, armor pieces (like suggested before), then we'll get gigantic 1024x1024 or even bigger UV maps as there will be lots of such small parts in a unit. Not very good.

[Neddie]

It's been done before in... Earth2150? It was awful.

Well, it was quite interesting, but horrid for actual play, like many features in the game.

[AF]

I wouldnt mind a lobby integration for any project relying on user designed player specific unit sets built out of precreated components, then either built ingame, or traded/given away to other players in the lobby freely.

pm me if you're interested but keep in mind that this would be a long term project and may well be integrated into other projects along the way.