Who finnally uploaded the new screenshots?

[el_matarife]

El Matarife, you haven't released anything of value, ever. This includes your post, which is entirely bereft of any factual accuracy. Or really anything remotely constructive other then unhelpful flaming - which I clearly instructed you to take to my forum so we did not take this thread off-topic.

You are welcome to come help us work on the mod, but sitting from the sidelines sniping simply reflects badly on you. As can be seen from our screenshots, we have clearly not been sitting on our arses doing nothing for two years. With essentially less then a handful of people - for a long time just two people working on the mod with such a large scope at any given time, well, what can you expect?

All I was trying to say is that most of us really don't have any clue how things are going on SWS because it has been a long, long while since you released a new version. Infact, the only working version on Unknown Files is there because it was fixed and rereleased by a 3rd party. It has been a while since I've played SWS, so I probably have the details all wrong and I admit defeat on the balance issues which as you said are probably fixed by now.

As for the "not contributing" argument, that may or may not be true, but you'll notice I'm not promoting anything I can't deliver. I'm sorry if my criticism was harsh, but constantly promoting and not releasing anything isn't a great strategy. At some point some jerk (In this case me) is going to stand up and say "Palpatine isn't wearing any pants".

Really, I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, because your post really contains hugely inaccurate statements, which really doesn't help your belligerent stance. Which I can't work out how you arrived at - I don't recall doing anything to you in the past, and really you could've communicated all of the above information in a far more level-headed manner, which would've really achieved a lot more.

Basically I began the airing of grievances of Festivus where you bring your family before you and discuss all the ways in which they have disappointed you over the last year. I think a little no holds barred criticism and total honesty is what this place needs once in a while.

[hunterw]

I think a little no holds barred criticism and total honesty is what this place needs once in a while.

this place has a constant supply of it

[Gnomre]

He probably wasn't, evil men have no consideration at all!

It's not fair to judge us by Jedi and AT-ATs; Jedi would still be a nuisance at this point, and including AT-ATs now would be like creating a version of TA that includes only commanders, the L1 kbot lab, and the krogoth gantry. You have to fill in the tech tree first. Why do you think none of the TA replacement model projects have ever gone anywhere? Why aren't you jumping down their throats?

As for the "can't deliver" line, that's also a bit unfair. If you had said "can't deliver overnight" then sure, I agree, but when you only have ~3 people consistently working on something of this scope at any given time as a side project in their free time, things can take a long damn time.

Right now, Zsinj, Maelstrom, and myself are the main members of the team doing much. Argh did quite a bit until he left to do PURE. Secure has some spurts of productivity. Finally, we've had a small number of one or two time contributors, the exception to that being Guessmyname, who made somewhere between 10-20 models for us.

Want some proof? I keep a detailed credits file, and of the currently 78 textured units in that file (it is, at max, 4 units out of date. I'll be updating it after this post), 55 textures are Zsinj's work, and at least a minor majority of the models were created by him as well in the first place. No single other person has done more than 5 skins for SWS, and Zsinj, Guessmyname, Secure, and myself are the only ones to have modelled more than 3 seperate units.

For the first 6-8 months after the release of SWS 1.0 (Dec 2005 for those keeping track), we didn't have a skinner at all, we could only really model. After watching one or two one-time contributors come and go, Zsinj finally sat down and taught himself the process in his own spare time, which is already sparse since he's in uni, works, and actually has a life. In that time, he's done all of this work in the little free time he has. Some others have made sparse contributions in that time, but he's the only one consistently working on the mod's art.

Since the middle of October alone, he's done 17 of those aforementioned 55 unit skins, even during the midst of his exams. We're actually within a half dozen units of something we might consider releasable, and then about 20-30 units later we'll have redone everything SWS 1.0 had.

You even have a great basis of comparison to our progress with S44. Factor the infantry down to 1 unit per side (our duplicates total around 8 total), and they're very nearly in the exact same place as us, progress wise: infantry, light structures, light/medium vehicles. They are indeed a month or two perhaps ahead of us, but that's okay. They've been working on their port of AATA to spring for the same amount of time, and even started the s3o process at roughly the same time. Spiked just picked up the process sooner than Zsinj and is an absolute machine when it comes to pumping out quality work.

We're sorry that we'd rather produce something of our desired quality level instead of tacking our names on a port and rebalance of other peoples' models (those of us working on SWS now had little-to-no involvement in the work behind first five SWTA releases) designed for a game made a decade ago. And we're sorry that work takes a long time to create, especially with such a small team.

So, basically, you have a few options: start paying us so we can devote all of our time to SWS development, volunteer your own time to help out (even if that volunteered time is simply finding other artists to work with us), or screw off.

[el_matarife]

Honestly, your mistake was starting over from scratch instead of just steadily replacing the stuff in SWS 1.0. You would have a steady string of releases and large player base with a fun, balanced if you just released a new version every 3 to 6 months around the rough release schedule for Spring. Each version would have a little more units remade, and a little better balance and fun. That seems to be the route Spring 1944 has taken and they at least have a few players and what is allegedly a fun mod. (I don't know if it is good because I am totally sick of WW2 games and don't want to try it.) I've been arguing for a long time that people should use the already existing TA and other content to prototype a game for fun and balance before you redo all the graphics, textures, and sounds to comply with the GPL.

And I'm not complaining about Jedi, those would be completely impossible to balance and design. Every Star Wars game ever that has tried Jedi has utterly failed at it unless you're all Jedi like Jedi Knight.

[Warlord Zsinj]

Thanks for backing me up, Gnome.

el_matarife, I realise that we are posting a lot and not releasing, but, well, partly you need to be patient with us - and partly you need to be a little more understanding. Consider that

a) As much as modding provides it's own rewards, we still thrive on user interest. If there are people wanting to play our mod, it makes us feel like we're doing a good job and that people want what we are producing.

b) We want you to know that we are still alive. For a long time we were developing in secret, and there were calls for more screenshots, more interaction, more transparency. People presumed that we had given up and that SWS was dead.

c) Linked to the above two points, if people aren't interested or think we're dead, we're far less likely to recruit people to help. And as Gnome pointed out above, the main reason why we're taking so long is that we have a huge project on our hands, with our self-imposed high standards, and 3 regular contributors. We need more people, and the only way to get it is to show people that we're very much alive and kicking.

For this reason, about 6 months ago we decided to pursue a far more 'transparent' strategy, because we realised that we were still a while away from release. So we decided to regularly post produced units, run competitions, ask for suggestions, ask people to name our units, and generally bring the public closer to our production process so that they could see the progress we are making.

Finally, I can take direct criticism. I can take no holds barred criticism, which I did when you first posted. It's helpful, and we need it. Feel free to jump into the beta when we get that going to dish out more of it. What I cannot take is baseless criticism that is not related to fact, and therefore unrelated to the task I am working on - and entirely unconstructive.

[Warlord Zsinj]

Sorry, you posted as I was replying.

I don't think we've made a mistake at all. We quite clearly thought out how we wanted to approach our release, and I am reasonably happy with how it is panning out. We are nearing our semi-private beta release, which will give us a larger player base review of the huge changes we have made thus far. Once that is done, we can proceed to the big release, SWS2.0 - which we are hoping will be a fully self-contained release, and ideally not a 'rough around the edges' like many other mods (which I don't intend as an offensive remark), but an entire completed package. By that I mean that many mods are released as proof-of-concept WIP's that slowly evolve into fully-fledged games, and so are rarely pick up and play for a casual gamer, or really anyone who is not an ex-TA fan, or isn't willing to spend the time to work out the complexities of Spring (and there are several, just read the article for our last PCMag review).

Anyway, I'm digressing. Basically I'm happy with where we are, and I certainly hope we haven't burnt any bridges along the way, as it wasn't our intention at all (quite the opposite ). The fact of the matter is that creating your own content takes an incredible amount of time, and unlike the *TA mods, we don't really have a huge and accepting fanbase that is willing to trudge through some mud to get to the golden core. Why would they trudge through a messy Star Wars mod when they can just play with 200+ people who are playing the latest alphabet soup mod? Certainly, we have an ace up our sleeves with the huge Star Wars fanbase around the world that would be very interested in a free Star Wars RTS. But we only have one chance with them, I think. An uncompleted WIP like you are suggesting would turn many of them off. So we need to have something completely self contained before we are ready for a fully public release. (Note that the semi-private beta release will likely be open to a lot of people, and will likely be based on-interest rather then on-invite - but is specifically going to be quiet so that we don't ruin our chances with the wider Star Wars public).

Also, in my final year working on SWTA, I managed to get the Jedi and Sith very well balanced, and had a number of fun games against a friendly Gnug that I tested with. It's difficult, but possible. Jedi and Sith are planned for SWS.

[el_matarife]

a) As much as modding provides it's own rewards, we still thrive on user interest. If there are people wanting to play our mod, it makes us feel like we're doing a good job and that people want what we are producing.

c) Linked to the above two points, if people aren't interested or think we're dead, we're far less likely to recruit people to help. And as Gnome pointed out above, the main reason why we're taking so long is that we have a huge project on our hands, with our self-imposed high standards, and 3 regular contributors. We need more people, and the only way to get it is to show people that we're very much alive and kicking.

This is why an iterative design strategy with releasing prototypes and betas works so well. You need users to successfully move forward. Look the OSRTS / Command Engine. Spring is moving forward fairly rapidly precisely because it has a large user base, and the Command Engine is barely moving because it hasn't released a single version yet. It is basically the same principle behind the Cathedral and the Bazaar.

By that I mean that many mods are released as proof-of-concept WIP's that slowly evolve into fully-fledged games, and so are rarely pick up and play for a casual gamer, or really anyone who is not an ex-TA fan, or isn't willing to spend the time to work out the complexities of Spring (and there are several, just read the article for our last PCMag review).

Proof of concept prototypes work really well to get this community testing and improving your project. Look at Kernel Panic, Spring 1944, and Complete Annihilation. Complete Annihilation has taken it to the complete extreme of never being a finished version and having multiple versions daily, and it is working quite well for them.

An uncompleted WIP like you are suggesting would turn many of them off. So we need to have something completely self contained before we are ready for a fully public release.

There's no reason you'd have to promote a beta release. If you just threw it on Unknown Files and made a thread here saying "This is just a concepts test, it isn't ready don't go promoting it to TheForce.net" or something along those lines I'm sure it would work.

[Warlord Zsinj]

An uncompleted WIP like you are suggesting would turn many of them off. So we need to have something completely self contained before we are ready for a fully public release.

There's no reason you'd have to promote a beta release. If you just threw it on Unknown Files and made a thread here saying "This is just a concepts test, it isn't ready don't go promoting it to TheForce.net" or something along those lines I'm sure it would work.

That is essentially what will occur, with some modifiers to ensure that it will only be accessed by our already existing fanbase and other spring players, rather than the general public.

Also, I do not think the WIP process is the wrong way to go, but I also don't think it suits our purposes. A large part of the changes we have made simply could not be done given an iterative process, because they would be impossible to 'slip-stream' into the mod. They are massive differences that required significant amount of work both visually and in terms of advanced lua coding. Essentially up until that stage we would have learned nothing from each iteration, as we would be giving something that would be completely changed at each verison, rather then something that is incrementally changing in small doses. It gives us the freedom to rock the foundations of our mod without incensing our fanbase, as well as experiment with big changes in our own playtesting circle without worrying about pleasing gamers. It also meant that we could focus on the incredibly time consuming content creation (gnome mentioned I've done around 55 textures. They take me on average about 6-8 hours each) rather then get distracted by balancing. And balancing for versions that we know are going to be changed significantly in the future, but need to be balanced in a detailed manner in order to ensure people playing currently can have fun. It seems to be a significant conflict of interest.

The mods you mention as examples are not in the same position as us, except for perhaps S44. KP is an excellent mod, but has a handful of units with a very simple design premise (not calling it a simple mod). SWS has over 100 units - and complicated units that are instantly recogniseable to anyone who has seen the movies, and so immediately recogniseable if we've done a poor job. CA has the backing of 10 years of TA know-how to rest on, and so is innovating in it's own way, but not really messing with the winning formula TA and all other alphabet soup mods have going on already.

S44 has had one major release on top of what we have, which occurred yesterday. If we had spikedhelmet we'd probably be in the same position ;P With any luck, our next beta release should be reasonably soon too.

[FLOZi]

Honestly, your mistake was starting over from scratch instead of just steadily replacing the stuff in SWS 1.0. You would have a steady string of releases and large player base with a fun, balanced if you just released a new version every 3 to 6 months around the rough release schedule for Spring. Each version would have a little more units remade, and a little better balance and fun. That seems to be the route Spring 1944 has taken and they at least have a few players and what is allegedly a fun mod.

Actually, you are quite wrong. Our previous release was like that, perhaps, but only infantry were replaced - otherwise the game was basically just the AATA port with a few gameplay tweaks. We, as with SWS, decided to start from scratch. We've just cut more corners (limited release, all 4 sides sharing factory and resource models), though we do have double the number of sides to handle.

When the next SWS is released it will be in a more complete state than the 'Lite' beta S44 just released.

Not to say that you shouldn't all be playing S44, as we rock.

[tombom]

hunterw posted on a completely different forum what he intedned to reply

Being free, Star Wars Spring is a bit rough around the edges. Starting a game, for example, requires the skill of a crack computer programmer

not really a SWS problem, but a spring problem. gotta make it easy for the noobs to start playing!!!!!!!!2222222222222222

[AF]

Glad to see my personal copies of PC Zone receive so much attention. Indeed the primary culprit behind that comment is tasclient and the lack of a single player client, as well as the hoops to jump through for AI support.

Zsinj, I agree it was correct to start over, but I also think that things haven't been executed as well as they could have from the observer end, not that they ever are.

For one you've given away too much in my opinion, and undermined any possible hype/hysteria potential. We wont be excited star wars is going to be released, rather it'll just happen and we'll be happy when we're in game, and a lot fo people won't make it that far in.

As for 'transparency', I don't see much, there are threads asking for skinners and sound effects people, and a thread full of thumbnails. Perhaps your forums are a little different but I see no point in actually going there save for when my arms twisted behind my back, which just p*sses me off. If you want site traffic and attention there are far better ways of generating it.

On a side note, gnome, you may want de-fanging. I have many projects in mind that would need a game as their central point and I always considered either starwars or gundam, but I couldn't work with someone as abusive as you, you run across your bridges with a fiery torch overflowing with petrol and expect it to stay intact, with no regard for what is appropriate for public forums and what's appropriate for private messages. As such you're a deterrent, not an invitation, to work on star wars.

[smoth]

If you want site traffic and attention there are far better ways of generating it.

I don't think that is the point of the site. For one, people clicking the link to the thread gives warlord Z a measure of how many people were interested in viewing the unit. Let alone interest in the unit's themselves. Also, leaving discussion primarily on the spring forum is asking for headaches with massive quantities of facepalm.jpg. Having it on a private forum is exactly what most mods need if they want serious feedback. That is the reason the FGJL forum was created if you recall.

Honestly, your mistake was starting over from scratch instead of just steadily replacing the stuff in SWS 1.0.

As far as a periodic release with minor visual content updates, I have to say el, most people won't notice or care. I do that for gundam and few people really appreciate the models because they do not look close enough. Yes, it is good to keep people playing a fairly recent version and letting them test along the way but sometimes it is even better to do a big buildup and release something huge and very different. Up until recently much of the new sws content was not created as the team had to learn texturing and uv mapping. There are still things that are only mentioned or hinted at in the shots that are pretty major stuff.

Starwars is adding a lot of content and their team is spread out doing sparse modifications here and there. Which means many parts are partially or only complete in a skeleton sense. S'44 has content updates but they are infrequent and we have not seen an official release very often.

Also, from the perspective of gundam, I have to do a lot of work testing and checking features before a periodic release. That work is redundant as I will likely change economy or unit selection in the next release. Part of the reason there are releases almost every 2 quarters is that I have to spend about a month testing. The next gundam release will be a large jump in version numbers because I want to make a major change that spans more then one version number.

If I were asked to make any kind of conclusion to this post it would be this. Periodic updates are fine and good if you are feature complete at a point. However, if things are radically changing periodic releases cannot happen because there is not time to test it all. Periodic releases also waste a lot of time testing as you could just test on the big release.

[LordMatt]

On a side note, gnome, you may want de-fanging. I have many projects in mind that would need a game as their central point and I always considered either starwars or gundam, but I couldn't work with someone as abusive as you, you run across your bridges with a fiery torch overflowing with petrol and expect it to stay intact, with no regard for what is appropriate for public forums and what's appropriate for private messages. As such you're a deterrent, not an invitation, to work on star wars.

<Insert something about stones and glass houses>

[Boirunner]

On a side note, gnome, you may want de-fanging. I have many projects in mind that would need a game as their central point and I always considered either starwars or gundam, but I couldn't work with someone as abusive as you, you run across your bridges with a fiery torch overflowing with petrol and expect it to stay intact, with no regard for what is appropriate for public forums and what's appropriate for private messages. As such you're a deterrent, not an invitation, to work on star wars.

Haha no, it's just that nobody likes you.

[Argh]

What, am I the only person who likes AF? Gimme a break

Seriously... as for SWS... when I was still participating, we talked about cutting units down, we talked about releasing early and often... the team felt that wasn't appropriate. I wasn't happy with releasing it in anything but "really nice" shape- i.e., no 3DOs, and the rest of the team was deeply unhappy with the idea of releasing it with less than the full unit mix.

Those choices, made deliberately and democratically, meant it was going to take forever to deliver a game.

Quit bitching at the SWS team. They're hard-working guys who are utterly dedicated to their vision. You will be happy When It's Done.

[LordMatt]

Haha no, it's just that nobody likes you.

I don't dislike AF, it's just that he does the same thing at times that he was criticizing gnome for.

[imbaczek]

When It's Done.

Be careful, see what's the first google hit for this one.

[AF]

If a murderer tells you not to kill people does that mean its right to murder?

I know I've been somewhat controversial in the past, and I'm not saying I'm a saint, far from it, but I do make efforts to try and behave. Indeed sometimes it comes back and bites me on the ass or hits me on the head with a plank, but I try.

The point is that though I might try and get it wrong sometimes, there are people here who don't try, refuse to try, and don't see it as their problem. Pointing out my mistakes does not erase your own.

As for you boirunner, there are plenty of people who like me, though people tend not to say they like someone on forums unless they are defending or responding as Argh was.
Someone pointing out that they do not like someone point blank like you did is quite telling of your personal character. if anything it would be more damaging to you to post it, than for me to see it, and it is a serious waste of your kudos.

[Warlord Zsinj]

I think Gnome handled himself very well with el_matarife in this thread, and generally handles himself perfectly fine. I think it's good that sometimes he shows his fangs when people are acting the goat, and I don't think it really burns any bridges. Often he says exactly what I'm thinking

Given that in SWS we're working with large loads, in a vaguely democratic matter, while still keeping creative control with the leads (Gnome and I), it can be a pretty stressful environment for someone who can't 'hack it'. I'm not talking about anyone here, simply that if you're working on SWS and we need something done, fixed or changed, we are going to have to tell you about it, and we aren't necessarily going to wrap it up in silk for you We need people to accept this as information transfer. Generally people who take Gnome too seriously on these forums are probably not going to appreciate the working environment at SWS either. And I don't think anyone who has found their way onto the SWS team - Guessmyname, aGorm, wolf-in-Exile, argh, Maelstrom and a host of other Springers who've made an appearance on the team in one way or another have really suffered from it.

Anyway, Smoth encapsulated my thoughts regarding periodic release vs bulk release very well. Generally most of the people who have actually seen working versions of SWS understand what I'm getting at here.

[Neddie]

Hello, lads. Stop throwing stones, we all have glass in our houses.