Get angry. Read this.

[AF]

I came here, I stated my views, I was attacked by a "modern day christian" IE, one with no beliefs and no morals, and went on to repeatedly prove to him that homosexuality is wrong according to the bible. Not that he cares, apparently. Anyone who gets offended or involved in the process shouldn't have got involved since they aren't, well, involved.

I do care, I do have beliefs, and I do have morals. And this is a forum, anyone can get involved if they want it. No I am not dyslexic, that was aGorm, and no I'm not a modern day christian with no morals, I was raised a catholic, but I dont consider myself christian today. My original spelling problem was that I could spell Btu I had to type slow, and I never had the time to type slow otherwise I'd never finish reading the forum. And that was in school too where there where no spelling checkers.

My problem was with your continuation of the subject and painting a very bad picture of a group who I felt where greatly undeserving and had been grossly mispainted. Using terms such as ass grabber and better not bend over for example aren't very good ways of expressing an opinion. If you had mearly stated: "I dont like gay people, the thought of 2 men having sexual relations disgusts me" Then that would have been it, and this thread would be half the size it is. Instead what you said was highly provocative and then you defended your viewpoint while at the same time using terms and using arguments that where even more provocative.

[[K.B.] Napalm Cobra]

Funny thing is most arguments on both sides are using the same justification.

Booyah for athiests. _|_ ^_^ _|_

[Caydr]

Thank you for the thoughtful post, Alantai.

Weaver, you need to read what I post before you make your reply.

Alantai has handily quoted the bit I was talking about, so here it is again:

"I came here, I stated my views, I was attacked by a "modern day christian" IE, one with no beliefs and no morals, and went on to repeatedly prove to him that homosexuality is wrong according to the bible. Not that he cares, apparently. Anyone who gets offended or involved in the process shouldn't have got involved since they aren't, well, involved."

I'm not using religion as a basis for the disgust I feel for homosexuals. Munch said that jesus loves all, etc, etc, and I wanted to show him that in fact the bible plainly states that homosexuality is disgusting to him. You cannot love something that disgusts you.

Munch, your arguments are a fallacy of logic. If Jesus died for us, fine, that doesn't mean that people are accepting that gift he gave and living according to the standards he laid out. Homosexuals aren't abiding by the terms of his gift. According to the bible, Jesus loves mankind as a whole, but that doesn't mean he loves every part of it. That doesn't mean he loved Hitler, does it? Does he think Hitler was a swell guy? No, Hitler was basically the epitome of everything Jesus spoke against. So if there can be one exception, there can be millions of them, based on the conduct of the person spoken of. If a man cannot contain his lust for another man, how is this a display of self-control, or any of the other positive attributes Jesus spoke of? Hormonal imbalance or not, the person is doing something that the bible plainly states is gross immorality. Sure, Jesus loves person, but not what that person DOES. Our activities define what sort of person we are. Now, whether you believe in jesus or the bible or anything else is another story for everyone else in this thread... bible and religion stuff is really irrelevant to most of the people posting here I think.

[aGorm]

Caydr, I think that might be were you are wrong. God, Jesus loves everyone. They may be displeased with a lot of people, but they hope like he'll those people will say sorry, because thats all they want. Gay's probablie wont get into heaven (unless they say sorry obviosly), because being Gay is wrong. However I know a few gay people and they are fine and nice. I think it's preety wrong that there gay, and that they should go straight, but you can't make people change there minds that easly.

Also your miss-understanding love. Love is not Likes and agrees with.

God loved Hitler... It does not mean he agreed or condoned his actions. Had hitler said sorry (I mean properly not just gone"god im sorry") then he would have been forgiven, however I think we can rest assured he did not.

Sure when this happens they get upset, and feel hurt probablie, but that does not stop them Loving and hoping that teh person will change.

Again, this is much like parental love. Sure I've done lots of things to annoy my parents, but even when I had realy cocked up, they still loved me. And when I say sorry, its all ok again.

aGorm

(PS these are just thoughts, I've probablie left a few holes in that) (and spelling errors)

[Caydr]

A thoughtful post. I am surprised. Thank you for the dignity, aGorm.

[[K.B.] Napalm Cobra]

What proof is there that the bible is a representation of the will of god?

[mother]

Gay's probablie wont get into heaven (unless they say sorry obviosly), because being Gay is wrong. However I know a few gay people and they are fine and nice. I think it's preety wrong that there gay, and that they should go straight, but you can't make people change there minds that easly.

aGorm,
Im going to work from the bottom up [insert sfx 'rim-shot'].

..you can't make people change their minds...
See thats where you've made the 'factual' mistake in your view of gay people. The whole 'point' of 'gay pride' is being proud of being yourself. People do not decide to be homosexual. They decide to be out. (With 'out' meaning honest about who they are.) People should be dishonest with (possibly themselves and) you and the world?

..wrong that they're gay..
Take that up with your supreme being. People no more choose to be heterosexual then they choose to be born.
To be- as the infinitive. Not 'to be perceived as.' If you are straight, you can try to force yourself to be homosexual. You will be 'living a lie,' and I can imagine that in order to be outwardly successful would require massive amounts of pschological damage to onesself.

What I'm basically saying is that, barring the literal scifi/horror sense, changing someones mind doesn't <cockney> e'nner i'nnuit</cockney>

Now Caydr. --deep breaths-- I'm going to reply to your scripture quotations right now.

First, my bible doesn't have chapters named 'Romans' nor 'Thessalonians' ,etc. And they are very apt demonstrations of strict interpretation leading to horrible internal inconsistency.

The Peter 1:15 quote, btw, sounds like a counter arguement to yours.

Warning to christians - Jew about to go midevil on your ass'
Leviticus 20:13... Oh boy Leviticus. I so wish you people would have the dignity to stop selectively quoting shit. Christians are all far more abominable (even if Jesus was messiah!!) by means of this book than any big gay homosexual type. Please oh PLEASE read the darned thing and tell me how many parts of your life are condemned in the same way? Chapter 20 alone lists the following as on-par with man lying with mankind: Screwing your mother/daughter in-law, screwing animals, cursing at your mother or father (holy pinched loaf batman! We'd ALL be dead!), and so on. Strangely these are more strongly punished then incest (sibling) and screwing during a womans period. Thought you only quoted chapter 20, I feel I must warn you that you are living sinfully and will not be allowed in gods kingdom. Your preists and scholars are false ones, who have used excuses like 'the new covenant' to falsely absolve your sinful lifestyle.

I jestfully hope that none of your kin ever used mules, or ate bacon, lobster, beefalo, or meat and dairy together. Or wore blended fabric. Or created flame (including micro sparks) on the sabbath. Or played football, harvested the corners of their fields, had haircuts, or FAILED to observe Passover, Yom Kippur, or a few other 'biggies.'

The fact of the matter is that even a pragmatic approach to 'the rules' would lead christians to observe the same rules that modern jewry does (non hassidic, non-ultra otrthodox). The fact that you pick and choose what to folow based not on the wording of the *untranslated* text, but on selective *arguably intentional* mistranslation (in this case ritually impure vs. moral sin, Lev 20:13 specifically doesn't use to'bah, which is the 'moral sin' version of 'naughty' used for such things.)

God damn! [Oh chit! I must be killed AGAIN!]

Oh oh and btw Proverbs...
This really leads to the heart of the matter. The 'Bible' is a politico-religious text. King Hezekiah was a pragmatic reformist, and I'm not willing to go out on a limb and call his colloquialisms 'the word of god'. If you want to use religion as a tool, fine, whatever, no matter what the truth is I know I'm *not* your maker, but don't be a closet case.

P.S.
Homophobia (hō'mə-fō'bē-ə)
n.
The fear of being gay. (and possibly the associated avoidance of exposure to homosexuals or related materials and situations).

P.P.S. Ok, so I took a little liberty there. I pragmatically edited the definition to match experience. Regardless of your agreement with my amendments, go see a psychologist- it's (literally) a clinical illness.

[BlackLiger]

P.S.
Homophobia (hō'mə-fō'bē-ə)
n.
The fear of being gay. (and possibly the associated avoidance of exposure to homosexuals or related materials and situations).

P.P.S. Ok, so I took a little liberty there. I pragmatically edited the definition to match experience. Regardless of your agreement with my amendments, go see a psychologist- it's (literally) a clinical illness.

*Psychology student pokes nose in*

Correct

[AF]

This discussion, well it was a flame but now its turned more civilised thankfully.

aGorm, if you fancy the opposite sex, would you change if common thought said that ti was wrong, and the bible said it was wrong and everyone else went with the same sex? Hence if everyone except you was gay and had been for the last 4000 years, you'd still fancy the opposite sex wouldn't you? It's who you are. Say you meet a girl you fancy a lot, she turns you on like nobody else has ever done, there aren't any other girls around, she's the only one, you lust after her for weeks, the sexual tension brims, and suddenly she makes a move. Could you contain your basic sexual urges? Some could, others wouldn't.

Lets swap it around then, someone who where gay, I dont think they'd want to change, some do though, you see them on TV on documentaries or comedy show sketches or chat shows. But a lot have pride in their sexuality and wouldn't want to change to become 'normal' because its normal to them to be gay. They dont have a humongous sex drive and cant contain any lust they have, they have just as much as any heterosexual person, it varies, just like some straight people have a lot of sex and some have very little. You cant just brand the entire group as sex maniacs in a great sweeping statement.

Yes some gay people and straight are ass grabbers. You usually see them in court or employment tribunals being used for compensation, or being locked up for sexual harassment of sorts. They're a minority, one that was much larger in times gone by, and is dwindling quickly as accepted thought moves away from them.

And yes the bible has been translated a great number of times, and certain very meaningful words have been mistranslated several times from hebrew to latin to old english to modern english.

And yes Hitler would have gone to heaven if he had said sorry, and attempted to wrong his crimes before death, he would ahve spent a heck of a long time in purgatory but as long as he asked for forgiveness and followed gods word afterwards before his death.......... Yes it would be something many would outcry at but its the word of god.

As for wether gay is right or wrong. Wether its wrong depends on who it is relative to.

[munch]

Thank God for one of the chosen race speaking up!

I think we've got it here. And I'm not surprised to say, as I have seen so many times before that it's us Christians who've got the bible wrong, with true-hearts like zoomb having an intuitive grasp of the truth.

Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for hiding these things from wise and intelligent people and revealing them to little children. Yes, Father, this is what pleased you."

Not that you're a child zoomb, it's just that it's great seeing God turn stuff on it's head =)

Thanks mother for speaking sense to us!

So what I'm hearing that is wrong, which the non-Christians like zoomb know: that God doesn't hate people because they have a tendency towards breaking a particular rule of the law. God hates sin, but loves people, yes even Hitler. Stoning somebody doesn't mean you hate them. It must be very hard to stone somebody!

What I think is this, that people grow up and live in their own safe world and when something outside, alien appears, which upsets the status quo, the natural reaction is to try and stamp on it. Being human it's very normal to look for reasons to think the way you do (rather than the other way around), and pick out the bible verses that seem to back up your position.

As Mother has made plain, the existence of a law showing what God thinks about an act is not the same thing as a command to hate somebody, which you will find nowhere in the bible. God loves everybody, and commands us to do the same.

If you don't know God, I've got to tell you... he's amazing =)

Love

Munch

[munch]

oops meant to be a PM!!

[AF]

I was replying to caydr who said I have no morals no beliefs, no faith and that I don't care.

Which isn't true, my beliefs are more philosophical than most peoples are because I came to a conclusion by myself, and I'm willing to challenge it and change parts, because I think that eventually I'll challenge it and I wont find fault, which is somewhere around where I am now. The only problem is communicating it is filled with flaws of grammar. For one explaining it to someone and they can easily construe ti as something totally different and then there's everything else.

Enough of that.

Sofar I've touched upon a great hitch, I'm currently rewriting that hitch so it supports my AI. Darkstars is back up so post any suggestions there, the AI forum is a mix of requests, and cries for help from me that where pointless as I solved them a minute after asking lol.

As for the above, I say sorry for ranting and I'm sure that any bad views of homosexuality will bite you in the ass when the time comes ;D

[Caydr]

[redacted]

[Zoombie]

Munch, was that bit about 'chosen race' satirical or serious?

That is what the jewish refer to themself's, i do belive. Odd that... maby Mother could elaborate.... wink wink, nudge nudge

[mother]

Munch, was that bit about 'chosen race' satirical or serious?

That is what the jewish refer to themself's, i do belive. Odd that... maby Mother would elaborate.... wink wink, nudge nudge

So she's a player?
It's 'chosen people,' and no we do not refer to ourselves as such in any serious manner (at least so far as I qualify to speak for all jews). About the only time I personally use the phrase is when lamenting to god about 'having to be chosen so much.'
[edit]
I guess I really didn't answer the question that well, sorry Zomb. The jews are 'The Chosen People,' it says so in the bible [Starting in genesis]. Being chosen in our case is the exact opposite from what it sounds like. It is a burden not an isse of eliteness. Unlike christianity judaism doesn't claim to have the only set of keys to heaven: our rules are not meant to be imposed on others.

In a more relevent/modern sense being 'chosen' is more akin to the obligation of the jewry to speak up when we see wrongs- particularly when its someone else being hurt. Unfortunately, this is a sometimes unpopular image to have. I'm sure you've heard jokes about 'jewish guilt,' and 'jewish mothers' (heh), and it all kinda traces back to the sense of burden from being 'chosen.'

Hopefully that was better
[/edit]

I really am in no mood to respond to our oh-so-ignorant compatriot right now. Lemme just say...


a)I didnt make a comment regarding willpower
b) The hebrew one, you know the 5 books of Moses and a few fiddly-bits added on. It *NEVER* contained any of the stuff you guys wrote in the first few centuries after JC.
c)The apostles!? Man I only wish you were JOKING.

It is obvious to me that you desperately need to expand your world view. The problem here isn't the bible or buttpirating or us evil vile jews. There is an entire world outside the little box you've drawn around your life. FFS you can't even wrap your mind around the fact that THE APOSTLES, from the moment they became APOSTLES OF CHRIST, ceased being a part of the JEWISH faith. [And TBH we kinda erasered the lot of them out of our records, seeing as how their decendents got so on about BURNING US AT THE STAKE, and a few other transgressions here and there.

[BTW The bit about Abraham and Isaac and the whole sacrifice thing is where I start having issues with 'The Bible,' so that would be the first book of it, no matter which version.]

As to the rest... frankly my dear I don't give a damn.


Oh yeah, and forceful anal rape really was NEVER the topic of discussion was it? Did I miss something?

[Zoombie]

No you didn├óÔé¼Ôäót miss a tic Mother. Its just that Cyder is a ignorant, offensive ass hole

[mother]

Like, entirely too appropriate

[Zoombie]

The link didnt work. Or Win amp is being dumb. Either way... i didnt get to see what it was...

[munch]

---

Munch, was that bit about 'chosen race' satirical or serious?

---

Serious. I never thought ithat they would call themselves by that name though - but make no mistake, they are a chosen people (I stand corrected on the "race thing - sorry mother).

Munch

[Count Nosferatu]

The fear of God means hating what is bad. (Proverbs 8:13)
Abhor what is wicked, cling to what is good (Romans 12:9)

Subjective... what is bad to us could be good for God (and vice versa)... then we'll be royally screwed.

Man lying down with man, same as when man lays down with woman, has done a detestable thing. Ought to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:13)

Leviticus also advocates slavery (25:44) and that eating shellfish "is" like homosexuality an abomination (11:10).

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men.... will inherit God's kingodm (1 Corinthians 6:9)

"Do you not know tha tthe wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders.... will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)"

Translation: Male prostitutes = "malakoi", homosexual offenders = "arsenokoitai" (pun not intended methinks)

Note: Arsenokoitai also appears in 1 Timothy 1:9-10 in the context of "adulterers and perverts"

Malakoi = literally "soft to the touch", or those males who took the passive role in bed. This can apply to male and female I assume.

Arsenokoitai = literally "male in a bed", or those males who took the active role in bed.

Read out of context this is prime proof for biblical condemnation of homosexuality. But, in the context of Romano-Greek culture, rife with child abuse, the bible was criticising child molestations, not necessarily homosexuality.

Read in further context, the bible (Old and New) explicitly bans irresponsible and excessive acts of sexuality, be it homosexuality or heterosexuality - gang rape, idolatry and excessive promiscuity and doesn't mention consenting and genuine homosexual relationships.

Sexual appetite, woman for woman, man for man, disgraceful (Romans 1:26,27)

There is popular view among scholars that this is in fact in reference to Romano-Greek orgies in which all sense of responsibility and love was rejected in favour of love. The actual text (this is paraphrased) states acts of indecency, "inflamed with lust for one another".

NOTE: I don't speak greek, roman or aramaic. So I myself am not an absolute authority of this matter as I don't have the precise definitions and translations.