Mod tag/ta-based discussion

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 13 Dec 2007, 18:32

You know full well if a mod has Atari IP and uses Cavedog TA content then it is TA based. BA is TA based. It has arm and core factions, commanders, all the OTA units are there in various forms, huge quantities of the original content unmodified nm redone from scratch. Even then the most BA could lay claim to while keeping its current design is a derivative work because its still set in the TA universe using TA storyline and so on.

and none of us is saying anything else.

The reason why i would like to see ba as a different section is simple; A lot of mods are based on BA, sky annihilation, tired annihilation, fifth millenium, hover commanders etc etc etc. . . so rather than putting 50 mods haphazardly into TA category i am suggesting to categorize ba and its deriatives either way like this;

1)TA -> BA -> ba deriatives.
2) BA-> ba deriatives

i cant think of any reason why this should not be like this, except your constant sayings that its a ta deriative.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 13 Dec 2007, 18:40

Guys, dont forget UH..... without UH there wouldn't be AA....

On topic.. tbh i think these tags are not needed (yes i know they are implented) and just add extra bulk.

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 13 Dec 2007, 18:55

Sleska nicely highlights why I think it should be an infinite tree - just better organization. Ideally, the tree control would have a graphical distinction between nodes that are mods and nodes that are just empty mod-holders (like the root TA node).

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 13 Dec 2007, 19:03

You people want a reason for a game tag? Fine. Kernel Panic has currently two branches, Kernel Panic Corruption (which was originally a branch from vanilla KP) and Kernel Panic Division Zero. Div0 is not a mutator, it's neither included with Corruption nor does it depend on that and the changes are fairly large so that Div0 warrants its own mutators. Both run on different version numberings (I think mutators should be children of a version instead of the other way around) and were released independently.

Saktoth wrote:When there are 5 versions of EE and 3 versions of Simbase and 2 versions of 1944 and 6 versions of SWS and they're all maintained and distributed, we can start worrying about this.

This is a standard. It's better to make a standard that can deal with uture situations than a standard that needs a revision in the future. When there's 3 variants of EE and only then you introduce the tag none of them will be tagged yet. By introducing that tag now we're making sure the tags are in place by the time the need arrives.

NOiZE wrote:On topic.. tbh i think these tags are not needed (yes i know they are implented) and just add extra bulk.

I think they are useful for categorizing stuff. Currently you have a list where every version of every mod of every game is listed sequentially, making browsing a hassle. It would be much cleaner if we had a tree where we can display only the versions of the mods we're looking at or even add a "show only latest version" filter so we don't have old versions cluttering up the list.

SecurE · Post by **SecurE** » 13 Dec 2007, 19:05

I have to agree with the stance that the entire Game and ShortGame tags are redundant, although I also feel it is quite a subjective matter where it is hard to be entirely objective. The underlying issue is perhaps on what you view Spring as, which subsequently colors your view on what the content for Spring is.
Using myself as an example I can say that I still think of Spring as TASpring, basically an engine that in the end was made to run content from Total Annihilation, where additional capabilities was more of a secondary objective. As a modmaker you have to work harder to achieve something that is dissimilar from the standard TA system (the resource system being a prime example) compared to someone who wants to create a TA style mod. From that point of view one could contend that TA (or perhaps XTA, which is what has been shipped with Spring to begin with) is the main game of Spring, and anything else created for it are thus mods.

My point of view is somewhat influenced by the fact that I find calling any of the mods that exist for Spring "games" somewhat presumptious. I would probably think the same even if Spring was built as a general RTS engine to begin with though. Mod is obviously what I prefer, though module works just as well, when does something become a game anyway? This simply underlines that the entire thing is a matter of opinion.

In the end the tags aren't even necessary as far as I can tell, although I suppose that some kind of meta tag to identify the general group/general style might be useful.
I will regret even bothering going into this discussion later, but such is life.

AF · Post by AF » 13 Dec 2007, 19:06

The problem with an infinite tree model si people will start attempting to be politically correct and we'll have lots of nodes with just one child node.

It also means the only tree controls are a viable method of representing the data. For example, it would not be possible to show a list of games which then have expandable panels revealing lists of options such as play X or play Y where X and Y are mods, among other options such as downloads links to websites or other items.

Instead the tags should be treated more as categories than strict geanealogies.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 13 Dec 2007, 19:14

AF wrote:The problem with an infinite tree model si people will start attempting to be politically correct and we'll have lots of nodes with just one child node.

Also it might make people wonder where that new mod they downloaded is hidden now.

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 13 Dec 2007, 20:11

I just thought I would clarify this.. there is no Epic EE.. there is only regular EE.. EE doesnt have any mutators..

second off.. What in gods name are we discussing/arguing here.. that mods like BA shouldnt include any of the words either Total, or Annihilation in their title.. cause thats retarded.. seriously what are we getting at..

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 13 Dec 2007, 20:20

They're complaining that TA mods should have a tag game=Total Annihilation in their modinfo because they say it's unfair towards those mods that aren't their own game.

AF · Post by AF » 13 Dec 2007, 21:34

fang if you look at the diagram you'll notice it is an example, it isnt a real world description. But at one point there was an EE mutator that was called Epic EE so fi you want, you can tell me the version number and we cna change the diagram.

KDR, the version tag can still be moved higher up above the mutator level if you wish. At the moment the ordering of the version and mutator tagshas yet to be set as none of the lobbies have implemented any features that use these tags yet.

I will not be using the tags in aflobby till 0.76 is released, and other developers are likely to do the same. The actual usage of the tags however is set, as is their meaning.

Det proposed another tag which would list keywords just like a wordpress blogpost would specify tags. These would then be used to improve search features or present tagclouds. While this solution is somewhat flawed on its own, it provides a useful means when combined with the other tags. However I disagree that it belongs in the modinfo.tdf and I have my own ideas that will use this sort of feature in conjunction with some other features I havent told anybody about.

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 13 Dec 2007, 21:46

AF wrote:fang if you look at the diagram you'll notice it is an example, it isnt a real world description. But at one point there was an EE mutator that was called Epic EE so fi you want, you can tell me the version number and we cna change the diagram.

KDR, the version tag can still be moved higher up above the mutator level if you wish. At the moment the ordering of the version and mutator tagshas yet to be set as none of the lobbies have implemented any features that use these tags yet.

I will not be using the tags in aflobby till 0.76 is released, and other developers are likely to do the same. The actual usage of the tags however is set, as is their meaning.

Det proposed another tag which would list keywords just like a wordpress blogpost would specify tags. These would then be used to improve search features or present tagclouds. While this solution is somewhat flawed on its own, it provides a useful means when combined with the other tags. However I disagree that it belongs in the modinfo.tdf and I have my own ideas that will use this sort of feature in conjunction with some other features I havent told anybody about.

Honestly? I'd prefer search-tags + infinite hierarchy. But that's just my personal preference. Search-tags provide filtering/grouping, hierarchy provides navigation. But that's just my personal preference - I can see that things are pretty-well settled with the current approach, and the current approach will be a BIG improvement, so I'm not complaining.

Really looking forward to the new UI that will unclutter the mod-list.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 13 Dec 2007, 21:56

Hierarchical navigation only works well when everyone uses the same standards. If one mod uses BA as the root and another has TA-UH-BA-blablabla all you get is confusion. Never mind that it makes little sense to parent a foreign mod to an existing one just because it's a derivative, when you want to pick a mod to play you probably don't want to navigate their whole family tree.

Zpock · Post by **Zpock** » 13 Dec 2007, 23:56

Why not just go with simply mod -> version (including mutated versions)?

If you want to sensibly sort the mod list and nothing else that is...

imbaczek · Post by **imbaczek** » 14 Dec 2007, 00:34

This thread is best summed up as

vi > emacs

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 14 Dec 2007, 09:55

Indeed, Vi > Emacs.

I think mutators and forks should be separate from the version, with versions there's most likely only one relevant at a time (suggesting a use for a "hide older versions" checkbox) but the other two can have mutiple usable at a time.

FLOZi · Post by **FLOZi** » 14 Dec 2007, 16:26

Kate >>> vi > emacs

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 14 Dec 2007, 17:05

This is a standard. It's better to make a standard that can deal with uture situations than a standard that needs a revision in the future. When there's 3 variants of EE and only then you introduce the tag none of them will be tagged yet. By introducing that tag now we're making sure the tags are in place by the time the need arrives.

Actually, my point is that this is never going to happen within the scope of this project, and its never going to be a problem- as the situation i described is incredibly unlikely (and thats being kind). There is never going to be anything more than 1 actively maintained version of any mod at any one time- hell, its often hard even keeping the main mod actively maintained.

The only mod that has any kind of real variants is TA, especially AA. AA actually has a bucketload of variants, but very few are actively maintained and they all play very, very differently from one another despite their common source so it really doesnt help anyone to know that XTA and LLTA are both TA mods- they're totally different games.

The only point this tag could possibly have is to ghettoize the 'TA based mods'.

Peet · Post by **Peet** » 14 Dec 2007, 17:09

Saktoth wrote:The only point this tag could possibly have is to ghettoize the 'TA based mods'.

If you actually think about it, you'll realize that the great majority of people who use any filtering feature based on ta-based or not will filter to ta-based only...

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 14 Dec 2007, 19:39

Peet wrote:
Saktoth wrote:The only point this tag could possibly have is to ghettoize the 'TA based mods'.
If you actually think about it, you'll realize that the great majority of people who use any filtering feature based on ta-based or not will filter to ta-based only...

Which is worse...

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 15 Dec 2007, 16:27

det wrote:Then (early releases of) Gundam and EE are content packages for Spring that use content from TA, just as BA is. Please define for me what a "TA" mod is.

Lol, I am sorry, what part of TOTAL CONVERSION didn't you understand? Gundam used some TA textures because redrawing a black to white gradient was redudant work and I didn't feel the effort would have been justified. I later replaced all the ta textures when I was moving towards 1.0. What you were seeing in the earlier versions of gundam was a public beta for a TC.

A TC I didn't bother releasing for TA because spring allowed me to make a better game and I realized that I could reach a larger user base with a free game then a game they would have to hunt down. At that time gundam began in the direction it currently is going towards a full game. However prior to that it was a TOTAL CONVERSION!

det wrote:Is it anything that depends on TA content? Is it anything that has a unit called a flash tank? What if that unit has a new model and is rescripted? Where does the slippery slope end? The longer this conversation becomes the more I suspect this tag is motivated by politcal reasons to discriminate against the dominant Spring mods.

BA, AA, CA would be described as user add-on packs or mods depending on who you ask because rather then replacing content they MODify conten that already exists.

/thread

Spring RTS Engine

Mod tag/ta-based discussion