Mod tag/ta-based discussion
Moderator: Moderators
Game and ShortGame tags make no sense. It is completely irrelevent that BA/CA/XTA incorporate some TA resources. If I make a mod that is 1/3 EE, 1/3 CA and 1/3 EvolutionRTS, what do I call that? The fact that a mod is derived from Total Annihilation is something that belongs in a (written natural language) description only.
In that case you would likely have a "Mashup" game, or we would all together decide on some new syntax, probably commar separated values, but then you might have people who have commas in their names etc.det wrote:Game and ShortGame tags make no sense. It is completely irrelevent that BA/CA/XTA incorporate some TA resources. If I make a mod that is 1/3 EE, 1/3 CA and 1/3 EvolutionRTS, what do I call that? The fact that a mod is derived from Total Annihilation is something that belongs in a (written natural language) description only.
The same argument can be used for mod names, what if a mod has more than one name?
At which point your content will become a game in its own right and you can start using CA and Complete Annihilation for your game/shortgame tag, but untill that happens you're still a mod of TA and should use the respective game and shortgame tags accordingly.CA's eventual goal is to replace all TA content. While this isnt likely to happen any time soon, that is our intention in the long term.
So...
Stop discriminating against TA-based mods, we will not be silenced, tear that yellow star off your jacket, fight the man!
Seriously i think this is arbitrary. depend1=otacontent.sdz;, depend2=tatextures.sdz; is all we need.
When there are 5 versions of EE and 3 versions of Simbase and 2 versions of 1944 and 6 versions of SWS and they're all maintained and distributed, we can start worrying about this.
This is only really for TA based mods. Even Epic EE is now just the official mainstream EE- its not a branch anymore.
Seriously i think this is arbitrary. depend1=otacontent.sdz;, depend2=tatextures.sdz; is all we need.
When there are 5 versions of EE and 3 versions of Simbase and 2 versions of 1944 and 6 versions of SWS and they're all maintained and distributed, we can start worrying about this.
This is only really for TA based mods. Even Epic EE is now just the official mainstream EE- its not a branch anymore.
Well, let's just consider: what's the "Game" tag going to be actually used for? Grouping in the selector? So that the clients will show a tree of TA->BA->version
Or is it so that you can clearly note which mods are using content illegally (let's not pretend here) copied from OTA (or TAK)?
I can see where it's necessary, but I think more a simple categorization tree with infinite levels would've been more useful, so you can use a treeview control to represent it. A little trickier to implement, but conceptually clear. The nice part is that the "official" is the literal _parent_ of the "mutator". EE-epic is the child of the EE official.
gamename, shortname, parentname[n], going from the immediate parent to the root (so max(n) is the root). Or vice versa, if it's simpler. So, a deployment mutator would be
GameName=Deployment;
ShortName=CADeploy;
ParentName0=Complete Annihilation;
ParentShortName0=CA;
ParentName1=Total Annihilation;
ParentShortName1=TA;
Whereas the main EE would be top-level (no parents), and the Epic mutator would list EE in the "Parent" category.
Obviously, this is too late now that it's already implemented, but it seems like we're trying to create taxonomy where none exists.
Or is it so that you can clearly note which mods are using content illegally (let's not pretend here) copied from OTA (or TAK)?
I can see where it's necessary, but I think more a simple categorization tree with infinite levels would've been more useful, so you can use a treeview control to represent it. A little trickier to implement, but conceptually clear. The nice part is that the "official" is the literal _parent_ of the "mutator". EE-epic is the child of the EE official.
gamename, shortname, parentname[n], going from the immediate parent to the root (so max(n) is the root). Or vice versa, if it's simpler. So, a deployment mutator would be
GameName=Deployment;
ShortName=CADeploy;
ParentName0=Complete Annihilation;
ParentShortName0=CA;
ParentName1=Total Annihilation;
ParentShortName1=TA;
Whereas the main EE would be top-level (no parents), and the Epic mutator would list EE in the "Parent" category.
Obviously, this is too late now that it's already implemented, but it seems like we're trying to create taxonomy where none exists.
Nice but the point is this has been implemented, and that hasn't. It also suffers from a GUI flaw in that there's no way of telling whether an entry is a folder/filter/category or a game. So if a user sees the CA entry but then see it expands to reveal variants, how are they to know that the CA entry is actually playable and isn't a folder for organisation?
And no, if anything this representation is fairer because it shows things as they really are more accurately. If you feel TA mods are being represented unfairly then your model of how it all works is fundamentally flawed, afterall BA is a mod of the TA game, and that's exactly what the tags should say.
putting BA and Balanced Annihilation in the game tags would be irresponsible and would actually damage spring and suggest to users that the goal of BA is total dominance, regardless of what noize says, you would be undermining yourselves and the entire system for no reason.
At least this way TA gains the credit it deserves rather than us all pretending it doesn't exist. If the TA mods are as great as they are then this should all be irrelevant.
Also the depend tags are not good indicators because not every mod that depends on them is OTA based. For example numerous early gundam and EE releases depended on those files, but they're not TA mods.
And no, if anything this representation is fairer because it shows things as they really are more accurately. If you feel TA mods are being represented unfairly then your model of how it all works is fundamentally flawed, afterall BA is a mod of the TA game, and that's exactly what the tags should say.
putting BA and Balanced Annihilation in the game tags would be irresponsible and would actually damage spring and suggest to users that the goal of BA is total dominance, regardless of what noize says, you would be undermining yourselves and the entire system for no reason.
At least this way TA gains the credit it deserves rather than us all pretending it doesn't exist. If the TA mods are as great as they are then this should all be irrelevant.
Also the depend tags are not good indicators because not every mod that depends on them is OTA based. For example numerous early gundam and EE releases depended on those files, but they're not TA mods.
I can't bring myself to write a dignified response to this utter bullshit.AF wrote:A putting BA and Balanced Annihilation in the game tags would be irresponsible and would actually damage spring and suggest to users that the goal of BA is total dominance, regardless of what noize says, you would be undermining yourselves and the entire system for no reason.
BA is _not_ a "mod" of the TA game. BA is a content package for Spring that uses some content from TA.AF wrote:If you feel TA mods are being represented unfairly then your model of how it all works is fundamentally flawed, afterall BA is a mod of the TA game, and that's exactly what the tags should say.
Then (early releases of) Gundam and EE are content packages for Spring that use content from TA, just as BA is. Please define for me what a "TA" mod is. Is it anything that depends on TA content? Is it anything that has a unit called a flash tank? What if that unit has a new model and is rescripted? Where does the slippery slope end? The longer this conversation becomes the more I suspect this tag is motivated by politcal reasons to discriminate against the dominant Spring mods.AF wrote:Also the depend tags are not good indicators because not every mod that depends on them is OTA based. For example numerous early gundam and EE releases depended on those files, but they're not TA mods.
So are you denying that BA is a mod of TA? Why would BA deny this and attempt to claim itself as a completely original game founded and created totally from scratch?
if a mod is TA based it should have the Total Annihilation and TA values in the game and shortgame tags. It's that simple.
If I had insisted that BA specify a TA->AA->BA path instead and a TA->AA->BA->CA and declared that BA is a mutator of AA not a mod in its own right then I would understand.
This is not a discussion thread on how to do it, this is here and now, we've had these tags sitting in the svn for weeks, a month at least.
if a mod is TA based it should have the Total Annihilation and TA values in the game and shortgame tags. It's that simple.
If I had insisted that BA specify a TA->AA->BA path instead and a TA->AA->BA->CA and declared that BA is a mutator of AA not a mod in its own right then I would understand.
This is not a discussion thread on how to do it, this is here and now, we've had these tags sitting in the svn for weeks, a month at least.
its not unfair, its retarded. what you really should do is to make absolute annihilation section that would then be cut into several others like ba, original caydr's aa, yan's fifth millenium etc.
BA is a "balanced" version of absolute annihilation, which is based on TA. effectively ba is a mod of a mod of ta.BA is _not_ a "mod" of the TA game. BA is a content package for Spring that uses some content from TA.
Okay, at first I was against this (I think from-scratch games shouldn't need to drill-down to mutator level) but now that all the BA fanbois are coming out of the work to declare that the mod that uses TA graphics, (roughly) TA gameplay, TA units, and TA storyline _isn't_ a TA mod, I'm totally with AF's approach.
Seriously, mad props to Sleska for cutting through the bull.
You know full well if a mod has Atari IP and uses Cavedog TA content then it is TA based. BA is TA based. It has arm and core factions, commanders, all the OTA units are there in various forms, huge quantities of the original content unmodified nm redone from scratch. Even then the most BA could lay claim to while keeping its current design is a derivative work because its still set in the TA universe using TA storyline and so on.
You know full well what a TA based mod is, please stop derailing this thread.
Could a moderator split out the derailing posts into a new thread? This sticky is about the new tags. Wether a mod is a game mod mutator variant or a content package has been endlessly discussed elsewhere and does not belong in this thread. This is not a discussion thread its a sticky.
You know full well what a TA based mod is, please stop derailing this thread.
Could a moderator split out the derailing posts into a new thread? This sticky is about the new tags. Wether a mod is a game mod mutator variant or a content package has been endlessly discussed elsewhere and does not belong in this thread. This is not a discussion thread its a sticky.
I'm not claiming that BA isn't based on TA, I just think the difference between a mod and a game isn't clear cut. Sure, BA could obviously be put as a TA mod, but it's a confusing classification for a game such as Spring, especially for newer players.Pxtl wrote:Okay, at first I was against this (I think from-scratch games shouldn't need to drill-down to mutator level) but now that all the BA fanbois are coming out of the work to declare that the mod that uses TA graphics, (roughly) TA gameplay, TA units, and TA storyline _isn't_ a TA mod, I'm totally with AF's approach.
Claiming that non-adherence to a certain tagging scheme you've devised is equivalent to trying to achieve dominance over Spring is completely retarded still.
Spring is not a game, its an engine. Either way spring would sit inside the abstract engine tag, and since no archive would need a nonspring value for the engine tag there's no point in it existing until another engine adds support for our content.I'm not claiming that BA isn't based on TA, I just think the difference between a mod and a game isn't clear cut. Sure, BA could obviously be put as a TA mod, but it's a confusing classification for a game such as Spring, especially for newer players.