Prometheus Spawning Grounds

[Argh]

@Arne:

If you're serious (and knowing that you get paid for this stuff, I have to assume that's the case), then I think we all need to have a debate about what we're wanting to see.

Why? Because we have an ongoing project (Complete Annihilation) that is trying to get an OTA-like game built that is eventually free of Atari's IP. So, what people want needs to be fleshed out a bit, in that context I think, so that it's not a waste of your time.

[lurker]

Or would you go in a completely different direction, no commanders, you milk cows for resources, etc?

You silly; everyone knows you need to use sheep for resources.

It's really great work you've done.

[Arne]

I'd probably release a set of designs under a cc license of some sort (if I actually make anything).

As for art direction, it's always tricky with these kind of community projects where random people do things for free. Maybe there could be some kind of frank/blunt statement/agreement which states that... if people want to contribute to [Whatever it's gonna be called], they:

- agree to share the work under the (whatever) license
- acknowledge that the work is now a subject to a collaborative process involving a community, and that the work is now a part of a set which it needs to fit into.
- understand that the work may not even be used if it's not up to par, and/or may be discarded or changed if something better comes along.

Yeah, you guys would need to discuss what direction you want to go in. I think it's best if I draw something you guys have reached some form of consensus on. It helps people feel better about art direction from the community, perhaps.

Story and names are less important at this stage I think. Maybe it's best to stay away from anything controversial and far out so more people can agree and contribute without getting upset (about the XHróhgealians only having air units with strange leaf design or whatever).

Hi Zinj

[Warlord Zsinj]

Everyone knows XHróhgealians use only bark designs in their air forces!

This is preposterous!

[rattle]

A lot of the unit designs already have little in common with TA units I think (which is good).

[AF]

I don't think you need to redo the lot from scratch at all.

I would say do the structures as you wish, but stuff like the thud, yah maybe add another 2 legs etc, but right now there are about 4 or 5 units that don't look like redesigns at all but rather images of. Such as the thud and the peewee, whereas the rest look original.

[Arne]

Yeah maybe that's the best.

I could transform the stuff into:

- The straightforward brute force guys. Numbers, fat guns and fat armour. PeeWees, Bulldogs and Krogoths. Lacks finesse. Meant to cater to players like me who just want to turtle and send huge fire-and-forget armies to the enemy base.
(The RAM? (pun on brute force and ARM))

- Terminator (SkyNet) meets Alien (I already have the long silvery heads). Sleek quality tech, some odd and quirky 'special-use' units which can give a real tactical edge if managed properly.
(The LORE? CRUX?)

[BaNa]

Yeah maybe that's the best.

I could transform the stuff into:

- The straightforward brute force guys. Numbers, fat guns and fat armour. PeeWees, Bulldogs and Krogoths. Lacks finesse. Meant to cater to players like me who just want to turtle and send huge fire-and-forget armies to the enemy base.
(The RAM? (pun on brute force and ARM))

- Terminator (SkyNet) meets Alien (I already have the long silvery heads). Sleek quality tech, some odd and quirky 'special-use' units which can give a real tactical edge if managed properly.
(The LORE? CRUX?)

I'm surprised noone replied to you. I love the ideas and the original art. I also liked the alternate storyline you put up on the psg.

As it is, if the "LORE" side has units that reward micromanagement more, you will see experienced players playing only that side, this may not be a rewarding game design choice, but then again that is more in the realms of the modders than unit design.

[Treeform]

i vote for RAM vs LORE redesign. (other name for core i thought might work korg)

[Machiosabre]

if the names get changed Id go with something original instead just choosing stuff that sounds like arm or core

something like Jerks and Awesomes or Ulirad and Carthor! a race of car-eating robots!

though seriously I think it would be cooler to keep the TA stuff, the story on that website is very cool and having TA behind it gives a nice background.

[BaNa]

though seriously I think it would be cooler to keep the TA stuff, the story on that website is very cool and having TA behind it gives a nice background.

And makes us forever leery of that court order from the owners of the TA IP.

[Machiosabre]

I think the odds of legal action have been greatly exadurated

if its only a few names and a couple of units then you can just as easily remove them if you do get a cease and desist, you could say why not do it now? but I think it's worth the risk.

[AF]

Spring can never go past a certain point in terms of popularity otherwise itll be killed off by Atari.

The only reason Atari has not killed off spring is because we're increasing the value of their TA IP by showing people still have an interest and making sales of OTA on ebay more viable by advertising their product.

Once the TA content is heavily worked on as would be required if we used Niklas work but without moving away from TA IP then Atari would be threatened by us and forced into a cease and desist to protect their IP from being devalued or obsoleted. They very act of improving a TA based mod is questionably bringing spring closer to that day.

Another point here is that Atari would target the TA mods initially but then target the spring engine itself because of its tight coupling with TA media, the banners, advertising, screen shots. Any attempt to argue that spring is just an engine would be totally undermined by this.

Thankfully existing updates and improvements are not substantial enough to be of concern, and those mods moving towards redesign such as CA are doing it with the intent of moving away from TA altogether.

[BaNa]

The only reason Atari has not killed off spring is because we're increasing the value of their TA IP by showing people still have an interest and making sales of OTA on ebay more viable by advertising their product.

I would argue that we are in the dark about Atari's motives or indeed whether or not they know about us.

Once the TA content is heavily worked on as would be required if we used Niklas work but without moving away from TA IP then Atari would be threatened by us and forced into a cease and desist to protect their IP from being devalued or obsoleted.

I disagree to a point. I think if Niklas is inspired by TA, but the units and factions themselves have different names, then they have no ground to stand on. We need not move into making wholly new factions just out of fear of Atari. We CAN, of course, make that move, but our motives should only be the general coolness of the new concepts :)

[Wolf-In-Exile]

Hi Arne, nice to see you around these forums, i'm a fan of your artwork. Cortex Command looks pretty cool indeed.

Firstly, art-wise, I agree with AF, rattle and the others here. Your redesigns are pretty far away from the original TA (save for some with an obvious sillhouette, like the Goliath, Pyro, Brawler etc.) which are pretty awesome as they are.

In terms of faction-themes, what about the first faction (RAM) having units that fit multiple roles. For example, a scout car can also double as a light anti-infantry/kbot vehicle; a plane which is a fighter/bomber etc. which are cheaper and faster?

The second faction (CRUX) would have specialised units (air superiority fighters, tank killers) that are more expensive but sleeker and tougher?

I think it'd complement your faction design identity well.

[Neddie]

I've a handful of spare change to place on the tabletop as well, both in terms of ideas and monetary compensation if you so wish. I apologize for my tardiness in response, I was otherwise indisposed.

I believe, in terms of game design and unit organization, little needs to be changed. As demonstrated by the antics of Supreme Commander, the framework of the actual sides is obviously too general to be considered specific intellectual property. That said; the story, unit names and sound effects will also require change. However, I'm willing to take on the first two of those out of hand, and I know there are a number of people willing to work on the sound effects.

The visual style is your own, though it will be justified differently through the new story line. As it is, it merges the legacy of Total Annihilation with your own vision. Some tweaks may be necessary, as directed by your own artistic desire, rather than any external force. You're free to range within the constraints of your own imagination, particularly if you're working for free!

I could contribute some money, perhaps 100 or 200 USD, if you require additional incentive. I don't have an abundance of funds, but I feel that this is well worth the investment.

[AF]

Niklas work is fine as is, take out the 3 or 4 units that are glaringly obvious and look like pictures of existing TA units like the thud and the peewee and your done. Change the names and that's it. The story etc s all there as is, just pretend that the core commander isn't actually a 'core' commander and that its not the TA universe.

Ataris motives are hidden from us and we can only guess but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be vigilant and cautious about stamping all over their Intellectual property.

But niklas work and its distance from atari is not the most pressing issue. There are plenty of people who would create content out of niklas' work with Arm and core monikers and even the title 'TA 2'. People who would as a result drag niklas work firmly into Ataris realm, pulling along all the non TA content based on his work along with it into a legal quagmire. Yes this would be incredibly irresponsible, but that has never stopped people before.

[Saktoth]

As has been mentioned, if this is going to happen, CA is where it will happen. You can check out our website here. You can see some screenshots of the game as it currently is here, a video here (it gets really good about 2 minutes in). The concept art we have thus far (just some rough sketches, nothing commited to) is pretty basic.

You can see its mostly still OTA units, but a few (such as smoths morty and soon, azaremoths new models) are only loosely based on OTA designs (which is probably what we'll be going for).

Anyway, the CA team have long been fans of your work Arne, and there are quite a few modellers who have expressed interest in working on this project if we can get some decent concept art. So, yes, we can make this happen.

As for faction concepts, in CA Arm is stealthy, fast, light, cheap, manoeuvrable and uses oblique approaches. Unique abilities include all-terrain units, EMP weapons, and cloaking fields. Core is heavy, powerful, using assault and siege tactics. Unique abilities include explosive kamikaze units, flame weapons and energy shields.

So, this is closer to the OTA factions (Where arm had all-terrain, emp, and more cloaking units), fitting the idea of arm as a hit-and-run rebel force, and core as en entrenched superpower (not that we are particularly committed to that part of the fiction, but the faction concepts from a gameplay perspective are fairy solid). Unfortunately, thats the opposite of your crux/ram concept.

[Neddie]

You cannot claim sole right to the use of free content, nor can you exclude other contributors, so I trust you will not make such claims for CA in future. I have dear respect for the project, but as I'm not a part of it for reasons not entirely my own, I take some offense at the assertion that progress will happen purely through it.

Of course, I could do the work I offered to Arne for CA as well.

[lurker]

You cannot claim sole right to the use of free content, nor can you exclude other contributors, so I trust you will not make such claims for CA in future.

Did I read the same post you did? The post I read was saying that CA was by far the most likely place for these designs to get used in a mod/game moving away from TA. It didn't have any claims onto the designs.