oh god yes.. even if it was only texture-per-object. it would make minor changes/additions to a unit so much easierArgh wrote:What Spring really needs is multiple textures per S3O
OTA texture system to 1 tex UV map converter
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Pressure Line
- Posts: 2283
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I don't understand that, TRO has already the sources of his models, and anybody can convert them to s3o, 3ds and obj with UpSpring.Argh wrote:we can use- i.e., .S3O, or failing that, .3DS or .OBJ, with normals preserved.
I thought about that already, but combining a hundred unit into one 3do, pressing the magic button, then splitting back into many models, sounds like the kind of process so complex and painstaking I'd rather avoid. Plus if you need to add one unit, you have to redo it all again.@zwzsg: you could make a very large DDS file, by simply combining every 3DO in a given collection together in one S3O, so that every texture you use will become part of the final picture. Nobody's tried that yet, but in theory, it should work.
I like 3do->s3o converter that keep that. That way the texture image itself isn't distorted, the same mini texture can be used for several quad of several size and shape. If instead you keep the polygon shape and distort the rectangular texture to make it fit, then you have to resample, shrink, enlarge, and deform the texture, making it all ugly.However, what you're forgetting, I suspect because you don't have much experience in uvmapping, is that what's wrong with 3DOs is that the textures are being distorted across the quads.
And if you're planning to re-UV-map and re-texture, then it's pointless to keep the texture in the first place. Just export the untextured model into any standard modeller or UV-mapper, which will always be better than a dedicated Spring apps anyway.
This sounds nice, but I suspect you are merely using pretty words without any idea of what they mean. Because I don't see what normals have to do with deformation within the texture 2D plane.whereby the resulting surface normals aren't being distorted
Peet, if you need to make a minor addition to a unit, it's simple, just move the new texture into an unused part of your UVmap.Pressure Line wrote:oh god yes.. even if it was only texture-per-object. it would make minor changes/additions to a unit so much easier
One texture per object would mean more wasted texture space (so less high rez pretty skins on a given graphic card), and more annoyance because of the multiplication of files to manage.
Edit: Sorry Peet
Last edited by zwzsg on 21 Nov 2007, 21:45, edited 1 time in total.
Not always. For example, consider the following: we have some units that are all based on the same shassis. They share much in common, yet the differences are big enough to prevent them from just using one texture for all units. With 1 texture per object we could have the shassis as 1 256x256 texture and the different turrets as another 256x256 textures. This way, 6 units will require 256x256x(1+6)=458752 texture space. If those units were done as single 512x512 texture each instead, that would take 512x512x6=1572864, that's 3.4 times more. Plus separate textures make changing the units easy - you can say remodel the shassis and just re-import it into all the models without any need to readjust uvmaps (kind of like it was done in 3DO).zwzsg wrote:One texture per object would mean more wasted texture space (so less high rez pretty skins on a given graphic card), and more annoyance because of the multiplication of files to manage.
Of course, mods with very different units that don't share many common parts (most of xA mods) won't need this, but something like S'1944 (or WD, or Battletech, or Gundam even) will make heavy use of it.
@zwzsg:
No offense... but uvmapping isn't your area of expertise, so please, quit derailing the thread. You're perfectly entitled to your opinions, but I've already said that what Treeform's tool is producing is exactly what I need, and that should be sufficient- it's my time to use, and if I'm wrong, well, that's my problem. I'm not wrong, nor am I missing anything important, but you obviously aren't going to understand that at this point.
Just sit back and wait- if Treeform can provide the meshes, I am entirely positive that it will be worthwhile.
As for the whole combining everything to a common texture... just open every model, copy the root, paste the root into an empty UpSpring model, repeat... create the .S3O... then cut everything but what you want to save, undo, repeat. I could probably do this with a large mod in a couple of hours, max- it's just time-consuming, not technically challenging.
No offense... but uvmapping isn't your area of expertise, so please, quit derailing the thread. You're perfectly entitled to your opinions, but I've already said that what Treeform's tool is producing is exactly what I need, and that should be sufficient- it's my time to use, and if I'm wrong, well, that's my problem. I'm not wrong, nor am I missing anything important, but you obviously aren't going to understand that at this point.
Just sit back and wait- if Treeform can provide the meshes, I am entirely positive that it will be worthwhile.
As for the whole combining everything to a common texture... just open every model, copy the root, paste the root into an empty UpSpring model, repeat... create the .S3O... then cut everything but what you want to save, undo, repeat. I could probably do this with a large mod in a couple of hours, max- it's just time-consuming, not technically challenging.
Argh,
why not just ask me to put them all on one texture?As for the whole combining everything to a common texture... just open every model, copy the root, paste the root into an empty UpSpring model, repeat... create the .S3O... then cut everything but what you want to save, undo, repeat. I could probably do this with a large mod in a couple of hours, max- it's just time-consuming, not technically challenging.
Because that's not what we're going to need, if they're going to get reskinned using more modern methods.
I don't want "efficiency" at the expense of the amount of texture space available. I think that's just silly, frankly- nobody serious is going to use a 3DO-like method in a modern videogame engine ever again. Modern video cards can very easily handle whole games with characters with 512 skins apiece- there just isn't any point in trying to "save texture space" with an automated method. Most of the texture-space optimization needs to be done by hand, because of the way it interacts with painting a skin. zwzsg doesn't understand any of this, and keeps saying other stuff, because he has never learned how to uvmap, and keeps thinking purely in terms he understands. He is hoping for something that acts like a batch-conversion UpSpring, which is entirely different from what I need- I want the models come out with uvmaps like that PeeWee in your first shot.
I want the models converted so that they can be reskinned with minimal work on my end. Pure and simple. I don't care about overall efficiency- quality > efficiency, in this case.
Putting them all into one giant texture would mean they all shared a common uvmap, and it'd just make that work harder.
Now, that said, if you can do that as well, by all means, do so- some people might want to do that, because they're still trying to keep using 3DO. I'm not saying that there aren't any possible users interested in that, it's just that that's not what interests me. However, what I've been saying here is that what you've built is a tool that would allow for mass-conversion of 3DOs to modern formats- that's ultimately the big prize.
Look, just convert ONE Talon model that looks good, using the methods you've shown, and I'll show how easy it's going to be, to make a final uvmap and skin it using modern methods... I think that will convince everybody that I'm on to something here
I don't want "efficiency" at the expense of the amount of texture space available. I think that's just silly, frankly- nobody serious is going to use a 3DO-like method in a modern videogame engine ever again. Modern video cards can very easily handle whole games with characters with 512 skins apiece- there just isn't any point in trying to "save texture space" with an automated method. Most of the texture-space optimization needs to be done by hand, because of the way it interacts with painting a skin. zwzsg doesn't understand any of this, and keeps saying other stuff, because he has never learned how to uvmap, and keeps thinking purely in terms he understands. He is hoping for something that acts like a batch-conversion UpSpring, which is entirely different from what I need- I want the models come out with uvmaps like that PeeWee in your first shot.
I want the models converted so that they can be reskinned with minimal work on my end. Pure and simple. I don't care about overall efficiency- quality > efficiency, in this case.
Putting them all into one giant texture would mean they all shared a common uvmap, and it'd just make that work harder.
Now, that said, if you can do that as well, by all means, do so- some people might want to do that, because they're still trying to keep using 3DO. I'm not saying that there aren't any possible users interested in that, it's just that that's not what interests me. However, what I've been saying here is that what you've built is a tool that would allow for mass-conversion of 3DOs to modern formats- that's ultimately the big prize.
Look, just convert ONE Talon model that looks good, using the methods you've shown, and I'll show how easy it's going to be, to make a final uvmap and skin it using modern methods... I think that will convince everybody that I'm on to something here
It's not that I don't understand UV-mapping, it's just that:
Yes, our goals are different.
The limited texture space is what prevents many TA mods and races to be ported to Spring (especially at once). And no, modern video cards still can't take a thousand of 512 skins, so texture space efficiency still matter when batch converting TA mods.
Yes, our goals are different.
The limited texture space is what prevents many TA mods and races to be ported to Spring (especially at once). And no, modern video cards still can't take a thousand of 512 skins, so texture space efficiency still matter when batch converting TA mods.
Just wanted to say that I have several units that share uv maps that I have already done. This is done in TD a lot and in gundam only a few turrets and vehicles do. However, in the future many units will cleverly abu... utilize uvmapping.yuritch wrote: (or WD, or Battletech, or Gundam even) will make heavy use of it.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
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Absolutely. The only time S3O is a real pain is when you want to combine multiple things from other S3Os together. Multitexturing support would solve that.Hm that's true. Like change the geometry of one piece and reassign textures to the entire piece.
Again, I want to translate stuff to S3O. Not keep 3DO. No point.