TA Derivative Balancing Theory Discussion

[Otherside]

I don't read huge blocks of broken English.

obviously u read it to find out its broken :p

[zwzsg]

I skimmed it, and then decided it was not worthy the effort of fully deciphereing and trying to understand it. I could waste hours pondering the intented meaning of some ambigious mangled sentence, and experience has taught me that people who can't type well generally can't think either.

[stilicho]

hence ive retired from BA totally so wat if i get less games i dont enjoy the game and the fact they r played on DSD makes me wanna play lesss

LOL, we played a BA game last night. You spent the first five minutes complaining about how much you dislike BA.

[Otherside]

I skimmed it, and then decided it was not worthy the effort of fully deciphereing and trying to understand it. I could waste hours pondering the intented meaning of some ambigious mangled sentence, and experience has taught me that people who can't type well generally can't think either.

mhm yes cos every1 writes properly wen typing on the inet /? O_o

and i read thru it and it seems perfectly fine

[Felix the Cat]

Felix, I actually don't think you've ever done that. Didn't you break a keyboard on DSD?

Err, no, I believe the keyboard-breakage was on Altored Divide. Before DSD even existed.

I don't believe I've ever played with you on DSD anyways...

[TheRegisteredOne]

I skimmed it, and then decided it was not worthy the effort of fully deciphereing and trying to understand it. I could waste hours pondering the intented meaning of some ambigious mangled sentence, and experience has taught me that people who can't type well generally can't think either.

mhm yes cos every1 writes properly wen typing on the inet /? O_o

and i read thru it and it seems perfectly fine

no wai ur post its cmplitly ridible its zswas its ghey its not so lol i rid ur post fine no porblem gj kip up its O.K. zwsdf dont lisen 2 zwsdfdsd hes its jus stooopid roflmao lolol u don huv 2 lRn 2 rItes inglish corekly a all 4 ppl @ undrstqnd!!!!111 u lol b/coz no1 on teh inet rites prprly i rite liek dis 2 a its 4 yo n he understand its liek wut kinda name its dat zwzsdfg zwzsfdg zzwssdffdzzz poo O_o o_O =) u no wut im sayin or sumthing??? kkk i no u don type liek dis im its a point mmmMK??/

[zwzsg]

mhm yes cos every1 writes properly wen typing on the inet /? O_o

First, let me point out how irrelevant that remark is. I never said nor implied that everyone writes properly on the internet. What you just did here is a perfect argument of straw man argument (you may not understand all the words in that article, but hopefully you'll get the gist).

Furthermore, I'll say that I'm not even telling you to write in a better manner, it comes in handy to be able to use the spelling to quickly sort the people.

In time I have begun to realize that most gamers are a too busy worrying about their kill/death ratio or their kps then they are about having a good time. Somewhere along the way you people have begun to equate the win as the only fun thing in gaming. I have long since grown weary of the asinine penis wagging that is gaming and playing to just play well.

My only reason to learn a game is to give a sporting game and have a good time. Simply that. That is no longer what gaming is about and frankly, I don't care anymore. There was a time where I wanted to be a game developer but then I realised people like you and sleksa might be my target audience and frankly I don't see the reason to put so much effort into something that people like you would enjoy.

There is a solution. Join the black mass of offline players. Online multiplayer is the most visible and faster growing portion of videogaming, but offline playing has not disappeared completly. Spring devs may have geared it toward multiplayer and let aside the single player part, but I know you have all it takes (skill, will, time, tool) to make perfecty good single player campaigns on this engine.

If you still need human interaction, but can't stand the online crowd, then play LAN, or with friends. You won't play as much, but at least the games will be more pleasureable more memorable. You'll lose in quantity but gain in quality (not quality as in "level of skill of the game", but quality has in "having a good time). And anyway, losing in quantity means getting more free time for whatever else, so it's actually a plus.




As for the whole discussion thing balance, I don't get why people are so violently discussing it. TA, the original game by Cavedog, without any third party mod, proved that a game with glaringly imbalanced units(1), with numerous game-winning exploits(2), with the general course of a game at the very opposite of what the designer intented(3), can still be perfectly balanced. TA sent me clear message: throw whatever in your stat sheets, never fix any flaw. The game may still be considered to have a ravishing untouchable balance(4) by hard core online elite veteran after ten years of pounding.

Am I the only one to have noticed how it renders obsolete all your balance discussion?

(1) Anyone up for arguing that Penetrators, Levelers or Podgers are as good units as Flashes, Samsons, or Defenders?
(2) Off-screen & line bombing, nanoshielding your guardians, fibber, and the whole list of Gnug's tips
(3) I still can't believe Cavedog designer meant anti-air to be the main anti-ground weapons, turned off sonar to be the main source of income in sea maps, hawks to be the most unstoppable anti-ground planes, ...
(4) I am not even being ironic. I concede that at the top level, untainted Cavedog TA still provides intense fun, wildy varied strategy, true skill test, unexpectable winning moves, ...




However, I concede that the adjective "balanced" when applied to mods can I haz a meaning, which is either:
a) There are no never-used units
b) There isn't a single way to win

However, people tend to focus on a), while Cavedog's TA proved that a game can be awful regarding a) yet actually manages b) (once you get past the initial flash rush). Also, people forgets that a game can fail at both a) and b), (that is, a game can have one, single way to win with every straying path leading to certain defeat) yet still be insanely fun and skilled (for instance, flash rush when playing TA on small maps), while a game managing a) and b) can be dull and boring.

Also, the measure of a) is often flawed because:
- For instance, TA has a great number of never used always useless unit, Starcraft has none. Yet TA has so many more units, that even by counting only units used in hard core game, it still has more than Stracraft. IMO, it's better to have more units even if a few are useless, than few unit to make sure all are useful.
- Units may have niche role, they may be outclassed by other units for the role of main assault unit and cannon fodder, yet reveals themselves essential under certain particular circumstances.

So even if the expression "a balanced mod" had a meaning, it still wouldn't equate "a good mod" like everybody here seem to take for granted.

Natural Selection

I stopped playing it after being disgusted by how 3.0 dumbified the game in a sad attempt to appeal to the masses. 2.1 was awesome, when you reach tech 2 (I mean heavy armor and machinegun), it felt special and rewarding. Onos where a rare sight to behold. But in 3.0, you could be totally losing from the start, playing like crap and still have all your team as Onos hiding in vents, that felt so wrong!

I've only been once in a high level game of N.S., and it felt very special. About everyone cloaked, the slighest wrong move fatal, strats, items used, and the whole way of playing had nothing to do with the usual pub game.

I do prove you wrong.. Go play EE its balanced..

Then why isn't everyone playing it instead of BA, if BA is bad and EE is good?

EE is not played because it is not played. Self-perpetuating vicious circle. For instance, if I saw opened game of EE when I come in the lobby, I would join them, but because there never is any, I never play it. EE intrinsic qualities have about NOTHING to do with it.

[LordMatt]

I do prove you wrong.. Go play EE its balanced..

Then why isn't everyone playing it instead of BA, if BA is bad and EE is good?

EE is not played because it is not played. Self-perpetuating vicious circle. For instance, if I saw opened game of EE when I come in the lobby, I would join them, but because there never is any, I never play it. EE intrinsic qualities have about NOTHING to do with it.

EE used to have a pretty vibrant community back when spring had more players.

[smoth]

I don't read huge blocks of broken English.

obviously u read it to find out its broken :p

otherside, there are several nonnative english speakers here you need to use proper spelling and not teh aol talk.

[Neddie]

Then why isn't everyone playing it instead of BA, if BA is bad and EE is good?

EE is not played because it is not played. Self-perpetuating vicious circle. For instance, if I saw opened game of EE when I come in the lobby, I would join them, but because there never is any, I never play it. EE intrinsic qualities have about NOTHING to do with it.

EE used to have a pretty vibrant community back when spring had more players.

We still have a pretty vibrant community.

[Neddie]

Felix, I actually don't think you've ever done that. Didn't you break a keyboard on DSD?

Err, no, I believe the keyboard-breakage was on Altored Divide. Before DSD even existed.

I don't believe I've ever played with you on DSD anyways...

You did. Drunk. You said you loved us, as in all the people you were playing with. I think somebody might have ragequit out of discomfort.

[Fanger]

EE had a vibrant community LOL WUT??

Look seriously folks.. Even I havent even been that deluded.. as for why stuff other than BA doesnt get played.. I cant figure it out.. it certaintly isnt because BA/AA/whathave you is the most fun mod.. heck I wouldnt even say there is a "most" fun mod.. ive played a good deal of the various mods this community has to offer and havent actually found one that I thought was bad.. some needed tweakings in my opinion.. but never played something and went jesus someone delete that off the internet... So why people dont play other shit.. I just dont freaking know.. My general thought is that it works somewhat similiar to placing new stuff at the front of a shelf and older stuff at the rear.. it just gets seen first.. XTA was the orginial only workable content mod for Spring, it got replaced somewhat by AA.. and then BA.. and these mods have always just been in the front of the shelf.. easy to see, easy to find, easy to get a game going.. I think most people just cant be arsed to get anything else.. I really think its that simple..

[Sleksa]

As for the whole discussion thing balance, I don't get why people are so violently discussing it. TA, the original game by Cavedog, without any third party mod, proved that a game with glaringly imbalanced units(1), with numerous game-winning exploits(2), with the general course of a game at the very opposite of what the designer intented(3), can still be perfectly balanced. TA sent me clear message: throw whatever in your stat sheets, never fix any flaw. The game may still be considered to have a ravishing untouchable balance(4) by hard core online elite veteran after ten years of pounding.

Am I the only one to have noticed how it renders obsolete all your balance discussion?

(1) Anyone up for arguing that Penetrators, Levelers or Podgers are as good units as Flashes, Samsons, or Defenders?
(2) Off-screen & line bombing, nanoshielding your guardians, fibber, and the whole list of Gnug's tips
(3) I still can't believe Cavedog designer meant anti-air to be the main anti-ground weapons, turned off sonar to be the main source of income in sea maps, hawks to be the most unstoppable anti-ground planes, ...
(4) I am not even being ironic. I concede that at the top level, untainted Cavedog TA still provides intense fun, wildy varied strategy, true skill test, unexpectable winning moves, ...




However, I concede that the adjective "balanced" when applied to mods can I haz a meaning, which is either:
a) There are no never-used units
b) There isn't a single way to win

However, people tend to focus on a), while Cavedog's TA proved that a game can be awful regarding a) yet actually manages b) (once you get past the initial flash rush). Also, people forgets that a game can fail at both a) and b), (that is, a game can have one, single way to win with every straying path leading to certain defeat) yet still be insanely fun and skilled (for instance, flash rush when playing TA on small maps), while a game managing a) and b) can be dull and boring.

Also, the measure of a) is often flawed because:
- For instance, TA has a great number of never used always useless unit, Starcraft has none. Yet TA has so many more units, that even by counting only units used in hard core game, it still has more than Stracraft. IMO, it's better to have more units even if a few are useless, than few unit to make sure all are useful.
- Units may have niche role, they may be outclassed by other units for the role of main assault unit and cannon fodder, yet reveals themselves essential under certain particular circumstances.

So even if the expression "a balanced mod" had a meaning, it still wouldn't equate "a good mod" like everybody here seem to take for granted.

You just made the best post in this thread!

its sad that people are still crying about flash after 10 years. :[

[Fanger]

I am gonna cry about it.. cause in half the mods that units in it uses a burst fire function out of 2 fire points.. and spring handles that in a manner that can only be called screwy.. gives this wierd seesaw motion on the turret.. with little wierd interruptions in fire..

why does it have a burst weapon anywho.. shouldnt it ought to just fire constantly..

[Warlord Zsinj]

Thanks for the compliments, Lindir, Erom and Otherside. I hope SWS can live up to the high standard of gameplay you're expecting of it.

zwzsg, I agree with what you are saying regarding the flash in OTA gameplay.

That was very much what I was referring too when I said

TA gameplay has dynamically evolved over the years, and many strategies that were considered to be overpowered initially were quickly defeated by players working to discover how to beat them. Other strategies that were overpowered simply became standard methods of combat that in turn provided their own nuances for players to discover.

I was a Core player, back when I was playing TA competitively. A good core player simply learns how to defeat a flash rush; how to actually use it to their advantage. Good radar coverage and a well placed commander can give you the economic boost you need to put out your slashers to stop the flashes in their tracks by wasting the initial flash cycle. Most Arm players usually never expected instigators to come knocking on their doors. Beyond that, some of the best clashes between good players, such as Rock, Picardoh, the Gnugs, etc, were with flashes, and later, missile trucks/MT's. Sure, they were relying on a handful of units for the most part, but don't most militaries rely on a main line unit, with supporting specialist units? Watching those players use their flashes, and later samsons was mindblowing - within the much bemoaned flash rushing strat were layers of complexity that the best players could delve into and discover.

If Cavedog were a modding team in Spring, the flash would've been modded out of existence long ago. And really, it's a great example of a situation where a strong balancer might be able to stand his ground against a torrent of 'omg flash rush is OP' whingers and let it play out, while a weaker one would give in and change it, simply because better people are beating worse people with a unit, and that one unit is decisive enough to make the difference blatantly obvious. The flash is not broken. Line bombing, pelicans, those were broken (and even in themselves not OP once you learnt how to deal with them / do them yourself).

One of the best parts of having a little bit of unit bloat (as opposed to a situation where no unit is useless, like in Starcraft, as zwzsg mentioned), is that you have situations where a quick mind could percieve that an otherwise less efficient combat unit all of a sudden has a use which has just arisen, and switching to that. I remember a game which had choked up on full moon (OTA), where I had survived the initial flash onslaught, and we had switched to trading missile fire and flanking each others defensive positions. The battlefield was strewn with wreckage, and our missile units were having trouble finding their mark. I started switching to stumpies (actually, the core version, whose name slips me at the moment), and I managed to turn the tide (Which was slowly swinging against me), simply because while this unit was not bang for buck as efficient as the samson/slasher in terms of raw killing power en masse, it had the ability to fire ballistically, and was quite nimble in the wreckage fields.

Basically, I think if you are balancing holistically (that is, not to a pure mathematical formula, but trusting your gut, playtesting a lot, and tweaking as you go), it is impossible to reach a 'perfect balance'. This is not a bad thing. Without this, you would never be able to achieve a dynamically evolving gameplay. If the gameplay was perfect; it would have no need to evolve. If you've reached a perfectly balanced game, I'd argue that your game is too simple if it has reached such a state. That being said, I'm not encouraging heaps of bloat, like the old WD airforce, or for players to have heaps of useless units; but a game that has not every single unit viable at every stage of the game, or even in that particular game at all, is not inherently a bad game.

[DZHIBRISH]

If you have units that dont get used they should be either made usable or removed,otherwise they are an obstacle and make the balance more confusing when new players try to play and win and when experianced players have harder time sorting units in the build menus between "should be built" and "shouldnt be built"=unneeded icons in the build menus and maybe more time wasted on thinking "maybe ill try to use this unit just this once".

i mean we could just take all the units from the unit universe and throw them in a mod when only a few will be usable but hey look how many cool looking units we have.

In ba its not just about flash and gator which on big maps are horribly oped.its also about the lack of any balanciung system.
Its basicly all about who screams harder about an unbalanced stat and who is noizes buddy and whispers on his ear.
Units get tweaked randomly only to make others oped.

[Otherside]

Warlord

Seeing as rock is a fellow gibraltarian and gibraltar is small im gonna try to get him into spring i know who he is in IRL and currently plays supreme com ill bring him bak to Spring he could probably join in, in this discussion

[Sleksa]

If you have units that dont get used they should be either made usable or removed,otherwise they are an obstacle and make the balance more confusing when new players try to play and win and when experianced players have harder time sorting units in the build menus between "should be built" and "shouldnt be built"=unneeded icons in the build menus and maybe more time wasted on thinking "maybe ill try to use this unit just this once".

i mean we could just take all the units from the unit universe and throw them in a mod when only a few will be usable but hey look how many cool looking units we have.

In ba its not just about flash and gator which on big maps are horribly oped.its also about the lack of any balanciung system.
Its basicly all about who screams harder about an unbalanced stat and who is noizes buddy and whispers on his ear.
Units get tweaked randomly only to make others oped.

Stop crying here and go play with your super commanders

[Fanger]

If you have units that dont get used they should be either made usable or removed,otherwise they are an obstacle and make the balance more confusing when new players try to play and win and when experianced players have harder time sorting units in the build menus between "should be built" and "shouldnt be built"=unneeded icons in the build menus and maybe more time wasted on thinking "maybe ill try to use this unit just this once".

i mean we could just take all the units from the unit universe and throw them in a mod when only a few will be usable but hey look how many cool looking units we have.

In ba its not just about flash and gator which on big maps are horribly oped.its also about the lack of any balanciung system.
Its basicly all about who screams harder about an unbalanced stat and who is noizes buddy and whispers on his ear.
Units get tweaked randomly only to make others oped.

I dont have a legitimate response to this so ill just insult your playing ability!

-Fixed..

[Sleksa]

If you have units that dont get used they should be either made usable or removed,otherwise they are an obstacle and make the balance more confusing when new players try to play and win and when experianced players have harder time sorting units in the build menus between "should be built" and "shouldnt be built"=unneeded icons in the build menus and maybe more time wasted on thinking "maybe ill try to use this unit just this once".

i mean we could just take all the units from the unit universe and throw them in a mod when only a few will be usable but hey look how many cool looking units we have.

In ba its not just about flash and gator which on big maps are horribly oped.its also about the lack of any balanciung system.
Its basicly all about who screams harder about an unbalanced stat and who is noizes buddy and whispers on his ear.
Units get tweaked randomly only to make others oped.

i cannot reply to utter retardation so ill just let him to wallow in his own shit

-Fixed..

-fixed ..