TA Derivative Balancing Theory Discussion

[Forboding Angel]

Actually, I have a perfect way to prove sleksa wrong.

Chapparal, prolly the best player EE has ever seen. Occasionally I can best him, but not very often. However, while I'm good, he's better all around by a long shot.

However, he phails when it comes to balance discussions, not because he doesn't know shit, it's because he gets the aforementioned tunnel vision of an amazing player.


Anyone who spends time on TT with us knows exactly what I'm talking about.


I still <3 you tho chap .

[Day]

Yeah, all bow down before smoth and FA or prepare to be pwned by ignorance.

[Forboding Angel]

Yeah, all bow down before smoth and FA or prepare to be pwned by ignorance.

I provided a very specific example and you start bawwwing. I never asked anyone to bow down before me, I simply provided and example as proof of the pudding.

The BA devs have already disparaged their own arguments anyway (evidenced by BA itself), so that is proof enough.

[LordMatt]

Lordmatt, you are a moderator here, you have a position of authority. Antagonizing us is not really fair as we cannot really strike back at you for fear of repercussions.

Antagonizing? By suggesting you guys who complain about being trolled be more like the folks who seem to get along with everyone? By stating my opinion in a matter of fact way on the question of who should balance a mod, and then getting the following is thrown at me:

LordMatt.. shut up.. 1v1 is not some be all end all setup.. good grief.. get your head out of your anus for half a second and realize that everything does not come down to 1v1 and l33t micro.. god im so tired of that being somehow a standard...

If our actions were out of line you would discipline us not join the lynch mob. It is a bit unfair and has been aggravating me.

Two things:
1) I would much rather help you guys see why people respond to you the way they do, as that might have lasting impact vs just muzzling you, which has been tried before and doesn't solve anything.
2) I don't moderate arguments which I am personally involved in, for obvious reasons (I wouldn't have a neutral opinion of the situation).

Rather then asking for people to troll us consider instead what that statement says about you as a moderator.

When did I ask anyone to troll you guys? However, if you guys choose to make posts like the one I highlighted with my silly troll bait comment, you should expect to be trolled (and mods shouldn't give you any sympathy after posts like that). Don't want to be trolled? Don't make those kind of posts, its very simple.

[LordMatt]

Yeah, all bow down before smoth and FA or prepare to be pwned by ignorance.

I provided a very specific example and you start bawwwing. I never asked anyone to bow down before me, I simply provided and example as proof of the pudding.

The BA devs have already disparaged their own arguments anyway (evidenced by BA itself), so that is proof enough.

People have already said that not all great players are good at balancing, but to be great at balancing, you do need to be a good player. And when <insert your non-TA mod here> has a vibrant community of good players, you will see why you need them to help balance <insert your non-TA mod here>.

[Forboding Angel]

Lordmatt, what I was implying is that you cannot ONLY listen to your best players for balance suggestions, you need to listen to those who might not be so awesome as well. Of course you need to sort thru the bullshit to find the gems, but that's to be expected.

However, one of the best ways to use your good players are to watch the way that they exploit the game so that you can close holes (This is one reason why I enjoy playing with wasp so much, he has a natural knack for exploitations... So does chapparal for that matter).

And no... People do not need to be good players to be good at balancing. People need to be good with logic and to some scale math to be good balancing. Of course, plain damn luck does play a factor at times.

It doesn't take a genius to be good at balancing, but if you're going to try to balance something, you have to pull your head out of your anus before you start.

[LordMatt]

Lordmatt, what I was implying is that you cannot ONLY listen to your best players for balance suggestions, you need to listen to those who might not be so awesome as well. Of course you need to sort thru the bullshit to find the gems, but that's to be expected.

However, one of the best ways to use your good players are to watch the way that they exploit the game so that you can close holes (This is one reason why I enjoy playing with wasp so much, he has a natural knack for exploitations... So does chapparal for that matter).

And no... People do not need to be good players to be good at balancing. People need to be good with logic and to some scale math to be good balancing. Of course, plain damn luck does play a factor at times.

Well if you're just in the tweaking stage, and your developer closed down 7 years ago, might as well cut out the middle man.

[nemppu]

korean players play a metric fuckton more starcraft then the "elites" of this shithole. As a minor FYI I used to keke with the best of them as zerg but I was always prohibited because I didn't speak korean. BTW, it was ALL memorization and training. Again, past number crunching, when you are looking to get good you have only to memorize the actions and practice them. Of course when my hands would act up I would lose but meh that is my point that skill is often just a matter of practicing a standard tactic or strat and when you have practiced one skillset you get pissed when someone changes is because you are now going to have relearn things. Happened to me with broodwars. Happened to the hardcore CS community.

you guys are fighting it here.


Sleksa, I don't really know why you have a morning star in your anus but this isn't the BA thread, I left it so you could piss and moan all you want in there. Don't think outside of that thread that I will consider your opinion valid, you have lost all respect from me all ready.

lllllollll smoths s ouncool

[smoth]

lllllollll smoths s ouncool

[BigSteve]

It's like a puppet show, pull the strings and they will say stupid stuff.

LOL so true matt, it's like the longest puppet show know to man its been happening for 2 years and it's still going strong.

I don't really have much to contribute to this other than that, as usual I agree with Matt, and pretty much anyone else posting in this thread who isn't called Fang, smoth of Fornoobing angel.

[Wasp]

It's like a puppet show, pull the strings and they will say stupid stuff.

LOL so true matt, it's like the longest puppet show know to man its been happening for 2 years and it's still going strong.

I don't really have much to contribute to this other than that, as usual I agree with Matt, and pretty much anyone else posting in this thread who isn't called Fang, smoth of Fornoobing angel.

[TheRegisteredOne]

I agree with Matt, and pretty much anyone else posting in this thread who isn't called Fang, smoth of Fornoobing angel.

this thread fails

[Licho]

- the best players are not the best designers! Designers needs different skills!

- the best players are best at giving feedback back for designers, but not best at giving design advices!

- game cannot be based by created by just designers or just best players. You need both to get it right.

- the best players are not guaranteed to know detailed game mechanics better than devs (bonus shield anyone? It was there for ages yet no good player noticed). Best players merely have the fastest perception and reflexes coupled with lots of game experiences allowing them to execute more complex tasks and to exploit weaknesses of others better.

- balancing the game just by best player might mean that it sux for "ordinary" players since they cannot achieve the "pro" level.
For example if you have unit that is "op" against other with perfect microing, you probably should not assume perfect microing when balancing it - it would then "suck" without microing and feel too weak. It's probably best to balance it for "average" player and its just going to be unit used by pro players a lot.

I was involved in Natural Selection (FPS/RTS mod for HL) beta testing and development where exactly this happend:

1) first game was being balanced by highly creative people of "inner group" who were involved in original design talk. Result was fun game with lots of options but after few months skilled players found serious disbalances between two sides of the game (marines and aliens). Game was useless for competive play.

2) then game was being playtested by the most skilled players - mostly by clanners. The result was game where you had general balance, it was more suited for competetive play, but lots of features of the game were not used at all! Game had by design mines, automatic turrets, heavy armor, jetpack etc. for marines, yet after "pro" balance changes you mostly needed just shoptgun and mines - remaining things were useless.
Game was usefull for competetive play but playing on pub server was now boring.

3) latest version involved group of playtesters which were recruited from ordinary players who played the game a lot and were able to talk in civil tone and give meaningfull feedback (skill was not taken into account in selection). As you can guess the latest group managed to keep the game sides relatively balanced yet increased usefullness of many of its features, making pub game more fun

[Zpock]

To be a good balancer you need to be a good balancer.

I mean a good balancer is probably so rare, say 1/1000 as many as good players, that it's a bit daft to think in, good gamer = good balancer.

It's like paintings, you can (and fucktons are) be an expert at looking on paintings (equivalent to playing a game), but still really cant CREATE one.

Someone who has no fucking idea about paintings and all the "rules" can probably create an absolute amazing masterpiece as well, altough very rarely.

Also, remember that the imperfections are an important part of true greatness. Think starcrafts unintended quirks.

[Hellspawn]

Someone who has no fucking idea about paintings and all the "rules" can probably create an absolute amazing masterpiece as well, altough very rarely.

Also, remember that the imperfections are an important part of true greatness. Think starcrafts unintended quirks.

So you are saying, someone who never played BA could master-balance it. And that that unbalance can be actually good?

What kind of twisted and sick mind do you have .

[Zpock]

Someone who has no fucking idea about paintings and all the "rules" can probably create an absolute amazing masterpiece as well, altough very rarely.

Also, remember that the imperfections are an important part of true greatness. Think starcrafts unintended quirks.

So you are saying, someone who never played BA could master-balance it. And that that unbalance can be actually good?

What kind of twisted and sick mind do you have .

I guess i'm thinking more about the underlying "vision" or what you would call it. This was of course created by someone who havn't played BA before, since when it was created it didn't exist? You could say it was done by cris taylor back in OTA, or when BA was forked from AA, or wherever inbetween (creation of UH, AA).

I believe you have to get the foundation/framework right from the start and do as little tweaking as possible afterwards. Only fix truly gamebreaking stuff, altough they shouldn't happen in the first place. This is the very essence of BA, it's not supposed to change with time.

The reason is that a constant ruleset is essential for serious competition to evolve. Whenever you change the rules, the competition scene has to start over and will never grow large, not good.

[Otherside]

BA has a poor sense of balance just people have been spoon fed it and are afraid of change ^o)

in long need of the core nerf (sumo and ddm in particular) and other balance changes that never seems to be coming (looks at dev team)

ofc they all play core. Dont mean to be flaming any1 but u cant balance a mod aswell if ur biasd to one faction..

[Sleksa]

stop speaking shit and go play with your super commanders

[Otherside]

*switches on BA makes 3 ddm*

nuthing shall pass nuthing!!! ull blow up my base launch 3 nukes and they r still alive

u shall march an army of krogs and jugs and still they live

*cough* balance *cough*


mmm super coms ? if u mean CA ? they r the same as BA com apart from cloak field cos if ur smart u make stealth detection its called not making a com useless so that its only use is to chuck it into the enemy base to com bomb k k thx :D

i know CA isnt balanced atm either but the devs listen and stuff will get fixed

BA has needed simple balance fixes that r quik to do for ages so were is it ??? oh wait its a core nerf nvm

[Fanger]

sleksa GetBack2TrollLair.. foo..

Yes someone who has never played BA could balance it... gasp imagine the crazyness...