Spring:1944 dev and testing

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 27 Oct 2007, 19:47

a t60 isnt a tank, its just a mobile armoured unit with the ability to rape infantry, which is infact what tanks are for. its only weakness is light armour and anti armour.

could always halve bullet cost I suppose but i thought the way it worked was good.

SpikedHelmet · Post by **SpikedHelmet** » 27 Oct 2007, 23:52

Oh right, because an infantryman who has the ability to "hide" should just cost more logistics and that's that, or perhaps have a larger "can't hide" radius... regardless of the decloak range, I don't think it very wise that games essentially rely on observation infantry more than any other unit.

SMGS =/= Rifles. Except in Russia's case.

a t60 isnt a tank, its just a mobile armoured unit with the ability to rape infantry, which is infact what tanks are for

Maybe if you're playing Spring 1918

It depends on the tank's roll, but most "combat" tanks have the sole purpose of being the spearhead that can smash the enemy and survive it. Can the T-60 lead an attack and smash anything? Not really. Anyway anti-tank guns are just extremely powerful. You can build 10 and have them cover every single possible advance, pepper the area with observation and then wtffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff pwn anything that comes along. If our tanks are being forced into infantry support roles rather than their actual roles then we're doing something wrong.

Death Dragon · Post by **Death Dragon** » 28 Oct 2007, 00:21

Wikipedia:
"The T-60 scout tank was a light tank produced by the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1942."

Edit:
(Yay I finally can post hyperlinks

)

Nemo wrote:one more time, T-60s aren't tanks they're called tankettes for a reason.

The T-27 is a tankette.

@SpikedHelmet
There are heavy and light tanks.

Pressure Line · Post by **Pressure Line** » 28 Oct 2007, 00:31

Death Dragon wrote:Wikipedia:
"The T-60 scout tank was a light tank produced by the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1942."

(Yay I finally can post hyperlinks )

its more like an ultra light tank. 5 to 20mm of armor, and a 20mm cannon. its more like an armored car with tracks.

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 28 Oct 2007, 00:33

Tanks are more or less meant for punching a hole in defenses. They are not to be used as mobile bunkers, because a tank will attract a force greater than it, and will be blown to bits. Also, airplanes best be used like they were in WWII, with these quotes from (my favorite) general Erwin Rommel.

The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions.

Anyone who has to fight, even with the most modern weapons, against an enemy in complete command of the air, fights like a savage against modern European troops, under the same handicaps and with the same chances of success.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » 28 Oct 2007, 01:11

Okay. call them light tanks, that's fine. but to call the T-60 a light tank and then to call the stuart/T-70 a light tank makes no sense - they're two entirely different leagues of armor. T-60 can be taken out rather easily by halftracks and armored cars, because those units sport very similar amounts of armor. conversely, a sdkfz251 wouldn't be able to do much against a T-70. It's just a separate league. This is why I call T-60s tankettes relative to the other equipment in use in 1944, its power level is VERY similar to that of the T-27 when the T-27 was in use. And the T-27 was entire *out* of use by 1944: last combat usage was in 1941, so it's entirely reasonable IMO to say that the T-60 was the tankette of the middle and late war era.

I'd cite wikipedia/tarrif/wwiivehicles throughout to show how awesome posting hyperlinks is, but that would be a waste of time.

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 28 Oct 2007, 01:59

Just as a note, I was making a suggestion for balancing and stuff, and how I would prefer tanks and planes to be used..

Yes, t-60 is phail :D

Edit: No wonder we got obliterated on that map in Red Orchestra.

They had a panzer IV versus our two t-60s, lol..

FLOZi · Post by **FLOZi** » 28 Oct 2007, 02:49

T-60's aren't fail against Sdkfz250/9s, mind.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 28 Oct 2007, 03:13

german rifles cost 45M should cost less than british rifles (40M) closer to us rifles imo (35?)

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 28 Oct 2007, 11:28

soviet commander needs an obviously diffrent icon
soviet infantry need to be reduced cost (like 7-8M)
the commisar-flag system is awful,especially early game; either arm commisars, allow them to build riflemen, or allow riflemen to capture flags
the t60 is overpriced, the daimer rapes it hard in every test ive done

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » 28 Oct 2007, 18:37

because its not meant to take on other vehicles

they're not direct equivalents. notice that the T-60 has nearly twice the HP, and thus doesn't get hurt by smallarms fire at all, while the daimler does. AND it builds about 40% faster than the daimler. I may have nerfed its cost slightly, but yeah...its infantry support, not anti veh. the daimler's 40mm shell is like the greyhounds 37mm in that it rips through any other light veh - but they're both worse at keeping infantry down than the T-60, AND they're both more vulnerable to smallarms.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 28 Oct 2007, 19:54

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:german rifles cost 45M should cost less than british rifles (40M) closer to us rifles imo (35?)

German rifle spam is already a problem in infantry battles, I fail to see how lowering costs will benefit anything aside from the already powerful German player.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 28 Oct 2007, 21:12

german rifle spam? german rifles are inferior to US and BRIT :/

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 28 Oct 2007, 21:17

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:german rifle spam? german rifles are inferior to US and BRIT :/

....

What!? Germans were easily the most devoted to the fight, had the best morale most of the time, and were decently trained.

German soldiers were top notch. The fact that they had a few brilliant generals only added to their ability to kick everyone's ass.

tombom · Post by **tombom** » 28 Oct 2007, 21:21

He's talking ingame.

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 28 Oct 2007, 21:22

And they are trying to simulate real life...

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 28 Oct 2007, 21:52

Unless something changed in the last week, German players have been able to merely spam rifles and overwhelm mixed forces for a long time in S44. See any of Liche's early games.

tombom · Post by **tombom** » 28 Oct 2007, 21:56

Actually, I think pretty much every side can win easier with rifle spam.

Pressure Line · Post by **Pressure Line** » 28 Oct 2007, 23:16

tombom wrote:Actually, I think pretty much every side can win easier with rifle spam.

SPAEM BARs FOR VICTORY! and have some rifles for capping flags.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 28 Oct 2007, 23:33

rifle spam works against noobs. with a bit of micro an MG or two and a sniper with, say, 5-6 rifles infront, can completely maul 30-40 advancing rifles. get rifles to come up a hill or between obstacles and watch a few SMGS hack through them all. rifle spam is only early game (before second barrack) after which well balancd groups are the way to go.

I dont know where the "german players spam rifles omg i lose" thing comes from because last time I checked US rifles have more HP for cost, and as an indiviual have about 250% the damage output; and cost less. british riflemen have sacks of HP and rifles comparable to germanys. the only thing german rifles have is a slight range advantage which in a fluid game dosnt count for much, so can the "omg german rifle op", german rifles are overpriced at 45m when us rifles are better and 35m. riflespam is a slight issue early game but once things esculate it becomes less of an option.

also, i would reduce the price of the russian scoutcar by like 100m because atm nobody is going to choose two of them over a t60

Unless something changed in the last week, German players have been able to merely spam rifles and overwhelm mixed forces for a long time in S44. See any of Liche's early games.

unless mine ears decieved me, oh wait, they did.

nerf rifle damage to vehicles!

nerf german HQ plz!

give commisars cloak whilst moving and pistols (ie, replace observation troops with commisars that can build but fill the same roll :D) because atm russia early game is awful

[22:55:41] <Sehkmet> Nemo made a test build to deal with LOS.
[22:55:57] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> ..?
[22:56:01] <Sehkmet> It isn't looking like the best solution, but ya'll may be using it later today.
[22:56:06] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> deal with LOS?
[22:56:12] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> whats changed?
[22:56:17] <Sehkmet> <[S44]Nemo> https://svn.bountysource.com/1944/branc ... oSTest.sdd anyways, there's a test build with the proposed LoS and weaopn range changes I talked about the other day. I applied the changes to all sides, so it should be playable like the normal one
[22:56:43] <Sehkmet> Essentially Observers become more expensive, and Snipers/MGs lose some LOS.
[22:57:59] <Sehkmet> Oh, and I've never bitched about Germans being weak. I don't play them, haven't done so for months.
[22:58:51] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> what the hell
[22:58:53] <Sehkmet> I can't play them because they trigger some bad memories, and I dislike that element of my heritage intensely. If I play them for a test, I play them very poorly. They just aren't fun at all for me because of the history.
[22:59:04] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> why would they nerf those units
[22:59:10] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> riflespam is already a problem
[22:59:21] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> "LOL I KNOW LETS NERF ALL THE NON RIFLE UNITS :DDDD"
[22:59:43] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> yeah i read up histroy for WWII games
[22:59:53] <Sehkmet> It's an attempt to fix the late-game stale-mate issue.
[23:00:04] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> how does that fix the stalemate issue!
[23:00:19] <Sehkmet> It doesn't, it was just an attempt, damn.
[23:00:53] <Sehkmet> Essentially, LOS with observers gives a defensive advantage to a pressed player.
[23:01:08] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> it also allows an attacker to spot porcs
[23:01:10] <Sehkmet> With AT weapons they can hold out for a long time with an inferior economy.
[23:01:12] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> then bombard them
[23:01:19] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> AT weapons getting nerfed
[23:01:27] <Sehkmet> *Sigh*
[23:01:33] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> i dont see why that means castrating observers
[23:01:38] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> people already barely use them
[23:01:50] <Sehkmet> I've always used them. Nemo and Felix do as well.
[23:01:51] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> as for the sniper los nerf
[23:01:55] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> ive used them too
[23:02:03] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> but ive never thought them anything like OP
[23:02:06] <Sehkmet> So the cheaper sniper doesn't make the observer obsolete.
[23:02:07] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> snipers NEED los
[23:02:13] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> they operate behind the lines
[23:02:19] <Sehkmet> I know.
[23:02:31] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> why would this be done :O
[23:02:34] <Sehkmet> I'm not debating this, I just get attacked by both sides, as usual.
[23:02:40] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> im not attacking
[23:02:44] <Sehkmet> Bring it up with Nemo when he gets back from the library.
[23:02:50] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> im pointing out the obvious flaws :p
[23:03:17] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> snipers and MGS need buffs not nerfs dammit
[23:03:26] <Sehkmet> Nemo was aware. We made him aware of the issues with these decisions before he made them.
[23:03:36] <Sehkmet> This was an attempt to address an issue.
[23:03:43] <Sehkmet> At a first glance, it doesn't.
[23:03:54] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> but.. it does exactly the opposite to what i should fix
[23:03:59] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> makes rifle counters worse
[23:04:05] <Sehkmet> We just need some people to confirm it before we postulate another solution.
[23:04:26] <Sehkmet> It's designed to make tank counters worse.
[23:04:31] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> what?
[23:04:38] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> why not just make tank counters worse instead
[23:04:51] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> of gutting infantry
[23:04:55] <Sehkmet> Because Spiked and some other people think the Observer is the issue.
[23:04:58] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> LIES
[23:05:04] <Sehkmet> Neither Nemo nor I agree with him.
[23:05:12] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> AT guns own because they gib tanks
[23:05:18] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> fullstop
[23:05:37] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> im sure thats realism but it fails in terms of gameplay
[23:05:43] <Sehkmet> They can gib tanks because they have great accuracy and have LOS to the target.
[23:05:55] <Sehkmet> We need to lower accuracy, which I think they have.
[23:05:59] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> ok
[23:06:00] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> well
[23:06:03] <Sehkmet> LOS was the big issue for Spiked.
[23:06:11] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> infantry changes look brainless
[23:06:12] <Sehkmet> Argue it with him, I've tried, he doesn't listen.
[23:06:20] <Sehkmet> He has the [S44] tag, not me.
[23:06:24] <[RoX]1v0ry_k1ng> but im sure we'll have to prove them brainless that hard way :p

Spring RTS Engine

Spring:1944 dev and testing