Balanced Annihilation V5.8

DZHIBRISH · Post by **DZHIBRISH** » 19 Oct 2007, 16:58

oh do they?
Iv been saying kbots are not diverse enough for ages...

[Krogoth86] · Post by **[Krogoth86]** » 19 Oct 2007, 17:00

Mr.Frumious wrote:Krogoth - if you want a defense for that firing range, just use Pitbulls. You only need 1 annihilator there, to hit artillery units or mechs that come calling, and to provide support to your mobile defenses if the fight moves away from your base. Your mainstay defense turret should be pitbulls.

Well the point is that Doomsday and Annihilator are both sides strongest defense structures. Core's is way stronger now - what would you prefer: Vipers or a Doomsday? Besides: Vipers and Pit Bulls are no defense against Penetrators or Banishers. Doomsdays are...

ginekolog wrote:anni is fine as it outranges all mobile artilery and DDM does not. Tremor pwn ddm but not anni.

Well in my opinion the range doesn't justify it's immense downsides towards the Doomsday machine. It can fight everything besides Tremor and Artillery. But why should it? The main problem you have still are Bulldogs, Penetrators and so on and the Doomsday does a tremendous job here. You might ask what to do against Tremors and Arties - simple: Build Toasters / Ambushers...

Annihilator range: 1400
Ambusher range: 1320

Not a big difference. In addition to that an Ambusher has AoE and if on high trajectory it can also make some enemies fly. I now don't want the Anni to become a Doomsday clone but just because of its range which isn't that outstanding when comparing to an Ambusher I don't think its poor values are justified. That's why I'd like it have a Doomsday-Anni dps via higher firerate (to be more flexible which goes a bit into the Doomsday direction) plus higher health. We now could discuss about the costs but I think it should be around that of a Doomsday if not a bit lower but not 40% more expensive...

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 19 Oct 2007, 17:16

no . . just no.

i'd rather have Anni's over doomsdays anyday. 950 range vs 1400 range is a significant range boost, the fact that it can shoot the sieging arty and create decent damage output make it a superior unit to DDM, despite ddm having *zomfg* llt and gaat lasers.

You might ask what to do against Tremors and Arties - simple: Build Toasters / Ambushers...

do you know what the damage output of the toaster/ambusher is? let alone the accuracy for that matter?

Not a big difference. In addition to that an Ambusher has AoE and if on high trajectory it can also make some enemies fly.

ambusher's aoe isnt anything significant to hold into, and i'd like to see ambusher throw bulldogs around, or are you saying that ba is all about flashspam even when the economy is good enough to get vipers/annis/ddms? ;]

We now could discuss about the costs but I think it should be around that of a Doomsday if not a bit lower but not 40% more expensive...

discuss whatever you want, lulz

[Krogoth86] · Post by **[Krogoth86]** » 19 Oct 2007, 17:38

Sleksa wrote:i'd rather have Anni's over doomsdays anyday. 950 range vs 1400 range is a significant range boost, the fact that it can shoot the sieging arty and create decent damage output make it a superior unit to DDM, despite ddm having *zomfg* llt and gaat lasers.

Well the Doomsday doesn't have just a LLT and a Gaat Laser. It's pretty much a Sumo with additional Anni-Beam plus HLLT - that's way more powerful than a Gaat and LLT...

So wow - your Anni can shoot artillery. So let's go and compare it to something similar: The Penetrator. One Annihilator is worth 3 Penetrators while it has wow - 500 health more than a single Pene and wow - 50dps more than one. So instead of buidling an Anni why don't you just build 3 Penetrators which you move a bit in front of your defense line (where they still are pretty much covered up by your other units) and voil├â┬á you can shoot artillery and this with about 3 times the Anni damage while having 2,5 times the Annis health AND being mobile too to evade slow Merl rockets or something...

So in the end the Anni also is even way inferior to its mobile version - the Penetrator and I think this is just wrong. If you still want to pay a buttload for it you can of course...

Sleksa wrote:and i'd like to see ambusher throw bulldogs around

Did I say it could?

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 19 Oct 2007, 17:43

I think you're confused because people always consider annis and doomsdays to be twins or something, the only thing they have in common is extra damage to T3, for the rest their roles are completely different, so when the doomsday rocks dfens and anni sucks at dfens it doesn't mean annis are bad.

[Krogoth86] · Post by **[Krogoth86]** » 19 Oct 2007, 17:48

Well if a defense structure is way inferior to a somewhat counterpart from the other fraction then this is strange. But as you said that could be due to different roles (though both are just defensive structures meant to stop enemies so their strength is based on damage it deals, can take and its costs and here Anni isn't top notch at all). When such a building now gets overpowered by its mobile version (which is significantly stronger and not just "a bit") it's just bad in my opinion - yeah...

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 19 Oct 2007, 18:02

penetrator's range is 950, which means that a ddm can shoot back at the penetrator

anni on the other hand can outrange ddms.

Well if a defense structure is way inferior to a somewhat counterpart from the other fraction then this is strange. But as you said that could be due to different roles (though both are just defensive structures meant to stop enemies so their strength is based on damage it deals, can take and its costs and here Anni isn't top notch at all).

bullshit. range is a important factor for the anni the thought that i can put down a building that outranges everything except nukes and berthas is a comforting one, especially when it deals insane amounts of damage.

offensive annihilator use was something Zenka used to do like every game in AA, and afaik anni's stats havent really changed from the values in aa. sure annis cant take up much damage, but on the other hand what could possibly come to deal that damage into it? and saying that unit has only one definite purpose is just retarded, with the same thought you could say that using solars as lltscreens or using metal storages as nanoshields is not an option since they both already fill a single role.

anni can be used offensively to take out the enemy's defences with precision (anni vs ddms/vipers)

or defensively (anni with pitbulls and some aa)

and it's good enough in both of those roles

j5mello · Post by **j5mello** » 19 Oct 2007, 18:04

the only "problem" with anni is that it forces you to build more than just them... (imo thats not a problem).

as arm if you want a solid L2 defense you need a mix of pitbulls for faster lighter units and Annis for takin down bigger longer range targets. AS core you can get away with just DDMs for shot to mid range but you'll need some kind of reactionary force to deal with arty.

whats sad is i barely play BA and i get this

[Krogoth86] · Post by **[Krogoth86]** » 19 Oct 2007, 18:30

penetrator's range is 950, which means that a ddm can shoot back at the penetrator

anni on the other hand can outrange ddms.

Yes of course - that's why he has other weapons. If his Anni-beam had the same range it would be kinda unfair...
But do you really see the Annihilator for just one purpose: Kill enemy defense line? This has two problems imo:
1.)
3 merl rockets = Annihilator dead (even less if they shoot while you're still building it).

2.)
3 Phoenix should be sufficent to kill the Anni and as he's going to be right next to the enemy front line it should be no problem to get them there before being shot.

So again: Why would you like to use an Annihilator to kill enemy defenses? Merls do a way better job on this and are mobile. Ok - I have to admit there are situations where this works but that's very very rare. It just gets killed too fast to be really worth a frontline building to kill the enemy "face to face". That's why he's more of a good supporter for your defense line against incoming units. But this is what I'm now complaining about - for this task he's just underpowered. Even his mobile version is better than this...

j5mello wrote:AS core you can get away with just DDMs for shot to mid range but you'll need some kind of reactionary force to deal with arty.

I'd call it Toaster...

Btw if the enemy force which would scramble your Doomsday has Jammers your Annihilators won't do you much good too and still - Merls range is 1215 and it still takes just 3 rockets to kill your Anni and as Pitbulls only have 730 range you have much room to get into position. Even if you now have no Jammers just take some weasels with you to waste the Anni on them. If your enemy doesn't have a targeting facility you might not even need those as he'll miss on radar dots very often...

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 19 Oct 2007, 18:38

every smart anni user will spam scout planes for loss

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 19 Oct 2007, 18:52

Just listen to ginekolog krogoth86 if im not "credible" enough.

The anni is fine, it does not need a buff.

please find something else to troll this thread

[Krogoth86] · Post by **[Krogoth86]** » 19 Oct 2007, 18:54

ginekolog wrote:every smart anni user will spam scout planes for loss

Every smart Core player has a single Diplomat at front which will effectively keep you from building up the Anni in the first place...

Well if you want to have a picture of what I think should be changed about the Anni let's do an example:
Let's say Core also should get a mobile Doomsday in the same way the Penetrator is done. I think I'll choose a slow Sumo-like K-Bot here and also just a single one to make it more vulnerable to air attacks and easier to emp. So let's go ahead: This Doomsday Sumo would have:

Health: 25.000
Anni-Beam: range 650 ; dps 2250
Sumo-Laser: range 540 ; dps 1350
Decklaser: range 300 ; dps 405
cost: about 2900

With that said: Yeah please leave everything the way it is and introduce that unit please - I also won't complain then but I'll never play Arm again...

Ok - now a bit more serious: This is what it would look like to do the same range reduction that happened from Anni to Penetrator while having the same damage and health upgrades at the same costs. Looks kinda ridiculous to me...

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 19 Oct 2007, 18:59

Sleksa wrote:Just listen to ginekolog krogoth86 if im not "credible" enough.

The anni is fine, it does not need a buff.

please find something else to troll this thread

Hellspawn · Post by **Hellspawn** » 19 Oct 2007, 19:01

I would take Anni over doomsday any day.

Annis are fine. Range DOES matter a lot, actually.

flop · Post by **flop** » 19 Oct 2007, 19:04

i like ddm better, for the high HP. annis are rarely useful as arti so the range difference doesnt mean much tbh. if your DDM is getting outranged, u can just close it and it becomes virtually invincible. there are some cases when annis would be better, vs krogs and the rare chance to use them to outrange DDMs. i dont think either unit is neccessarily better than the other, but i tend to prefer DDMs

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 19 Oct 2007, 19:12

well with the current damage of t2 popups i'd rather have a few pitbulls + anni over a ddm+vipers anyday

flop · Post by **flop** » 19 Oct 2007, 19:17

Sleksa wrote:well with the current damage of t2 popups i'd rather have a few pitbulls + anni over a ddm+vipers anyday

ddms are one third the cost in energy of annis and also cost less metal, i would rather have a ddm and more popups than an anni and less popups. ddm is cheaper, has more firepower, and tons more hp. all you sacrifice is the range of the anni which will rarely come into play unless your using it to outrange ddms.

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 19 Oct 2007, 19:43

Closing your DDM when your enemy sends 100 bombers in to try and kill it is a beautiful thing. 0.05 damage mod with 10k hp ftw. An effective 200,000 hp with 20x the heal rate- Krogoth eat your heart out. 133,700 HP? I laugh at your 133,700 HP!

The Anni doesnt stack up well when compared to its counterparts, the DDM and the Pene. It could probably do to be a bit cheaper (Or who is to say, perhaps the DDM and Pene need to be more expensive) but i think buffing its RoF would be silly- the low RoF is kind of one of the whole points of the Anni.

Its sort of the difference between Arm and Core though. Core has Solid, direct brute-force approaches. Arm is more fragile and is about projection of power over a large area.

Mr.Frumious · Post by **Mr.Frumious** » 19 Oct 2007, 20:02

Saktoth wrote:Closing your DDM when your enemy sends 100 bombers in to try and kill it is a beautiful thing. 0.05 damage mod with 10k hp ftw. An effective 200,000 hp with 20x the heal rate- Krogoth eat your heart out. 133,700 HP? I laugh at your 133,700 HP!

Actually a very popular stragety on SpeedMetal. Not that I'd know. Toughest walls in universe - the only challenge is deciding what to put behind the wall.

LordMatt · Post by **LordMatt** » 20 Oct 2007, 01:24

The only time I built anni was one game when we had a krog coming at top of DSD and I didn't trust the nub to dgun it (he dgun the little mech in front of it

instead and get pwnt by the krog) so I spammed 3 annis and a bunch of popups. Krog walked right through.

Spring RTS Engine

Balanced Annihilation V5.8