Let's remove groupAI feature from Spring

BigHead · Post by **BigHead** » 09 Oct 2007, 09:14

This thread is becoming just another of those quarelling threads that are so common on internet. In other words I failed to start a serious discussion. Propably becouse I'm too new to Spring and thus have no authority. However this also means that I missed the good old goupAI days that are over now and I look at the situation without any emotions towards groupAIs.

Just for the record I consider this Skaoths reply (there are others as well) to be relevant while being negative to my proposal.

modders: You'll be able to find my AutoMexUpgrade and NanoTurretAutoHelp gadgets in lua section once they're ready.

Post by jK » 09 Oct 2007, 09:19

BigHead wrote:modders: You'll be able to find my AutoMexUpgrade and NanoAutoHelp gadgets in lua section once they're ready.

can't you do it with a modified layout.lua (to add the command button - there have to be someday an interface for this in the widgetHandler) and a widget?

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 09 Oct 2007, 09:20

BigHead wrote:This thread is becoming just another of those quarelling threads that are so common on internet. In other words I failed to start a serious discussion. Propably becouse I'm too new to Spring and thus have no authority. However this also means that I missed the good old goupAI days that are over now and I look at the situation without any emotions towards groupAIs.

Just for the record I consider this Skaoths reply (there are others as well) to be relevant while being negative to my proposal.

modders: You'll be able to find my AutoMexUpgrade and NanoAutoHelp gadgets in lua section once they're ready.

It's only quarreling because you refuse to actually engage anyone in debate on your idea, instead relying on a) stating your (bad) idea over and over, b) making wild assumptions about the stupidity of newbies, and c) pimping your own work.

If you instead explain why it is necessary to hide useful features without trying to convince us that the GroupAI button is "confusing" sans evidence to back up that assertion, then we'd have something to discuss.

TechnoTone · Post by **TechnoTone** » 09 Oct 2007, 09:48

Bighead, unless I've misunderstood your intentions then your NanoAutoHelp widget has already been done. It's called ImmobileBuilder and it was written by trepan I believe. It automatically sets immobile builders (nano towers, for example) to roam and gives them a patrol command.

KingRaptor · Post by **KingRaptor** » 09 Oct 2007, 10:00

Making a "show groupAI" box in settings that's unchecked by default would just give newbies something to get confused over when I tell them to turn it on, defeating the very purpose of making it in the first place.

malric · Post by **malric** » 09 Oct 2007, 10:27

I tend to agree with BigHead. I am not such of a new player, and still I do not use the "Select AI" button. I do not want to learn what each button does, and just by seeing it I can't tell what it does. I usually just like to play, I tried a few times to learn how to play better but I prefer intuitive things...

I am not a GUI expert but the solution with a "Select AI" button seems just wrong.

And besides the builders there is just one option "Simple formation". And for storages for example there are none! And for metal makers there is again one optino. So you have to press a button to see that there are no AI-s available ?

So, it would be really nice to hear one devs opinion. I have more trust in them than in people that argue continuosly that removing the feature is bad even from the first post it was clear this is not the case.

It should be the case that at least for the units that don't have AI-s the button should be discarded. For the ones there is one it should be directly there. And for the one there are multiple option a decision has to be made. (which go to button and which different ways of using).

*edit: Indeed the title is misleading... maybe it could be changed to something more representative ? But that's not an execuse to not reading the post...

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 09 Oct 2007, 10:45

It's pretty bad UI design to have lots of different buttons which appear in different contexts - this creates a lack of uniformity, which is MUCH more confusing than having one button with an unknown use.

Tobi · Post by **Tobi** » 09 Oct 2007, 10:52

Maybe the button should be hidden when there are no GroupAIs available for the particular selection.

That has advantages from both sides: it then is a matter of an installer change to hide the button, and it is a matter of putting a valid GroupAI in the directory to have it show up again.

TechnoTone · Post by **TechnoTone** » 09 Oct 2007, 10:55

Felix the Cat wrote:It's pretty bad UI design to have lots of different buttons which appear in different contexts - this creates a lack of uniformity, which is MUCH more confusing than having one button with an unknown use.

No offense, but that is absolute rubbish. Application toolbars have been context sensitive for years and with the new Ribbon bar that Microsoft has provided with Office 2007 this is even more apparent.

Getting back to Spring: when you click on a Flash Tank you don't see a Repair button; when you click on a construction kbot you don't see an option to Attack. Isn't it a valid question to ask why we see "Select AI" for units that don't have an associated AI?

BigHead · Post by **BigHead** » 09 Oct 2007, 19:21

jK: That would propably be possible but I don't know if I want to hack that file. If someone decides that he doesn't want to use the widget anymore he'd still have the modified layout.lua file.

TechnoTone: Nope you got it wrong. I've started a thread about NanoAutoHelp gadget in lua section as it's offtopic in this thread

Edit: Now I understand why you got confused. The name of the gadget suggests that nano towers will automatically relaim/repair stuff and that's not true ... I'll change the name :)

KingRaptor: That would indeed be wrong. However the idea is that if a newbie tells you that he needs help upgrading his mexes you don't tell him to click on Select AI->MexUpgraderAI->Manual. Instead you tell him that builders that can upgrade mexes have a button called UpgMex* OFF that does it. Same would go for other (if there are any) useful AIs.
*The name needs to be changed into something more appropriate but if the font becomes unreadable if the name is longer than 11 chars.

Sheekel wrote:Arguments aside, it's a poll for a reason and it shows obvious approval for keeping the groupAI.

The poll asks wrong question (my fault). Also I think I shouldn't have added the poll before any discussion took place. I think if the poll asked the right question (hide select ai button by default and replace the AIs with direct buttons?) the results might be different. I also hope that I managed to persuade some people who initially disagreed :). I've thought of reseting the poll but I feel that would be dishonest to simply throw votes of the people who already voted away.
(I'm sure my use of tenses is completely wrong in this paragraph and I'd be happy if someone corrected me with a private message

)

*Edit would be different -> might be different

Sheekel · Post by **Sheekel** » 09 Oct 2007, 20:39

I like tobi's idea.

cong06 · Post by **cong06** » 11 Oct 2007, 00:16

Felix the Cat wrote: It's only quarreling because you refuse to actually engage anyone in debate on your idea, instead relying on a) stating your (bad) idea over and over, b) making wild assumptions about the stupidity of newbies, and c) pimping your own work.

If you instead explain why it is necessary to hide useful features without trying to convince us that the GroupAI button is "confusing" sans evidence to back up that assertion, then we'd have something to discuss.

I think he's stated pretty clearly why it's necessary to hide the useful features.
It's like clean up...no one wants to do it, but it'd make the program neater, etc.

Honestly, I'm going to have to agree with Tobi on this. I'm not quite sure how it would be implemented though...Unless that was put in the install, so that only AI scripts that have been proven to work show up as available AIs.

Maybe have an "AI settings" panel where you choose which AI's to load. It could start off with none, like it's been recommended, and then it would know which ones are in the final stages and actually work (labeled Advanced) and then the rest could be labeled "Dysfunctional."

As for hiding Upgrading mexes, I fully support leaving them in. I use them every game. That being said, people that play the first time aren't going to use them at all. Maybe have them activate after several games...or something cool like that.

But it seems everyone is Content with the way spring looks...

@the documentation: Documentation is good, and fixing it is good, but that doesn't mean we can't make the game usable without it. I mean, I barely touched the documentation, and I know of plenty of people that quit even after I explain how to play, let alone "Play this game. oh and you have to read all this stuff to know what buttons to use."

People don't like to have to invest time when they can easily do something else instead. Someone mentioned that Spring has a curse in that it's free: people will invest a lot of time to figure out how to play a game that they bought, but they don't have any reason to if it's free.

We need to pull the players in, and then bombard them with features. Then they won't be scared to death of the wonderful game we're promoting.

REVENGE · Post by **REVENGE** » 11 Oct 2007, 14:00

What I would like to see is an lua gadget that allows adv cons to upgrade mexes by being able to place moho mex build orders over the existing mexes. That way, you can still have build ques, you don't need to toggle a groupai, and you can choose between reg mexes and exploiters for core.

TechnoTone · Post by **TechnoTone** » 11 Oct 2007, 15:07

REVENGE wrote:What I would like to see is an lua gadget that allows adv cons to upgrade mexes by being able to place moho mex build orders over the existing mexes. That way, you can still have build ques, you don't need to toggle a groupai, and you can choose between reg mexes and exploiters for core.

+1!!! That would be extremely useful!

I realise this is slightly off topic and mod specific but relating to Revenge's suggestion - isn't it possible to configure lvl1 mex's so that they can be built over? i.e., they will be reclaimed first like a tree or rock is if a build order overlaps it. I seem to remember this being discussed a few months ago.

cong06 · Post by **cong06** » 11 Oct 2007, 15:12

REVENGE wrote:What I would like to see is an lua gadget that allows adv cons to upgrade mexes by being able to place moho mex build orders over the existing mexes. That way, you can still have build ques, you don't need to toggle a groupai, and you can choose between reg mexes and exploiters for core.

Forget that, why not just salvage any non-movable object that is in the way of any build order.

Then you can do it for Advanced fusion, (replacing the solar panels, etc) and the metal makers as well.

The only limitation would be accidentally salvaging a building that you wanted to keep because a build order overflowed to a building you wanted, but I'm sure with some creativity there'd be a solution.

BigHead · Post by **BigHead** » 11 Oct 2007, 15:50

The functionality you mention will be covered by the gadget. In fact you can already right-click a mex to upgrade it in my current implementation. Queuing (holding shift) isn't ready yet as I don't have much time to work on it these days.

Anyway If you want to discuss this widget (offtopic) please start a thread in lua section.

edit: I didn't read your posts enough. You won't be able to place a new mex over an existing one. You'll have a new hidden command called UpgradeMex that will be default command (right click) for t2 cons when the mouse is over a t1 mex.
Now back on topic please.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 11 Oct 2007, 16:53

cong06 wrote:
REVENGE wrote:What I would like to see is an lua gadget that allows adv cons to upgrade mexes by being able to place moho mex build orders over the existing mexes. That way, you can still have build ques, you don't need to toggle a groupai, and you can choose between reg mexes and exploiters for core.
Forget that, why not just salvage any non-movable object that is in the way of any build order.

Cause that would be very very bad. Every time I laid a minefield in EE half my base would end up getting reclaimed.

cong06 · Post by **cong06** » 11 Oct 2007, 17:12

Forboding Angel wrote:
cong06 wrote: Forget that, why not just salvage any non-movable object that is in the way of any build order.
Cause that would be very very bad. Every time I laid a minefield in EE half my base would end up getting reclaimed.

well, you could make exceptions...like only salvage when you're placing economy based buildings.

Or if you play like me, and really don't care which stuff you salvage, etc, then you can just set to reclaim everything but production... (since in BA, for example, a t2 base looks totally different from a t1 base)

ok. sorry BigHead.

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 11 Oct 2007, 21:35

Seriously. If we start removing stuff in favor of "easy" spam of buttons for every order you would ever want to give to a unit, I'll quit Spring, because that's totally idiotic. Really. BigHead, you may be a slow learner, but please don't translate your own failure to understand extremely simple concepts onto everyone who plays Spring.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 11 Oct 2007, 21:46

Felix the Cat wrote:Seriously. If we start removing stuff in favor of "easy" spam of buttons for every order you would ever want to give to a unit, I'll quit Spring, because that's totally idiotic. Really. BigHead, you may be a slow learner, but please don't translate your own failure to understand extremely simple concepts onto everyone who plays Spring.

TBH felix, he doesn't deserve this ^^^ Thats a bit over the top.

Spring RTS Engine

Let's remove groupAI feature from Spring

Should be groupAI feature removed?