Let's remove groupAI feature from Spring

[rcdraco]

He knows LUA, why can't he fix it then? And yes, it is valid, nobody else has complained, so it can't be an issue that anyone cared about before. Most Spring players know better then to click a button if they don't know what it does, and if they think they should, there's a key a little below backspace called Enter, which is great to use to start a chat up and ask a question. Everyone who has, or does play Spring knows what each AI does, and when to use it.

[caldera]

i think bighead made a good point. looking at the shrinking lobby-user-count makes clear that we cant get many new members to keep on playing spring. making spring more user-friendly by removing/renaming unclear gui-buttons is imho the right start.

[Erom]

Most Spring players know better then to click a button if they don't know what it does,

And this is a terrible thing that needs desperately to change, and the proposed changes in this thread are a simple, quick idea to simplifying one aspect of the UI.

Oh, yeah, and not everyone plays in the lobby, not everyone can just ask a question. Most new people are going to want to try all the buttons before they jump into an online game anyway, and when half of those buttons muck things up, they give up on Spring.

Also, the pole is 12-15 right now. Just because no one has complained before doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

[LordMatt]

This isn't going to happen unless someone has big plans to MAEK PATCH, and even then it will be up to the devs...

[BigHead]

caldera & Erom: Exactly what I meant, thx for support.

It also comes as default with the engine and thus you can just scream at noobs to turn it on rather than having to download it.

The default (vanilla) Spring package definitely needs improving. I've posted on this before and it's offtopic to this thread so:
http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... ht=#221547
http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... ht=#225477

the ability to execute native code instead of interpreted LUA is a powerful function and there is no reason not to keep it in.

The ability will still be there. If someone makes some ubercool-groupAI-that-can't-be-done-in-lua in the future, everyone will still be able to use it by enabling groupAIs in the settings (and devs can set to enabled=true in next release). However I think it'd be better to start that ubercool AI by a direct gadget button rather than groupAI -> ubercoolAI.

The rest: I'll make the lua gadget for mex upgrader and will see what radar AI does and propably turn it into a widget. Maybe once you have these tools you'll reconsider this.

Edit: Btw I didn't play OTA before I started with Spring. It took me 1 WEEK of boring trying-everything method to learn the basics. After that I felt like i'm ready to try multiplayer. However I am a very persistent guy and you can't expect this from average joe.

[Felix the Cat]

There is still absolutely no reason to make this change.

If you can show me ONE potential Spring player who tried the game and decided not to play it because he didn't know what a GroupAI was, I may consider changing my mind. Maybe. If you can prove this theoretical player is not terminally retarded.

[BigHead]

You don't stop doing something becouse of one little annoyance.
However if there are many little annoyances that's something different.
Spring is very confusing for a new player. Hiding groupAIs by default for new players is just a little step towards making Spring more newbie-friendly.

Still if you're a pro player, it would be better if you had one nice Auto Upgrade Mexes ON/OFF button for builders instead of having groupAI button on every single unit in the game, don't you think? I am working on that button right now.

[Sleksa]

What if i am unable to use Luaui and the other widgets?

[BigHead]

Then you're also unable to play mods like CA, funTA, TiiredA. I even saw some gadget in BA.
However you can still use groupAIs by enabling it in the settings. As I've already written 1000 times before groupAIs aren't removed, only the button is hidden by default.

[Felix the Cat]

You don't stop doing something becouse of one little annoyance.
However if there are many little annoyances that's something different.
Spring is very confusing for a new player. Hiding groupAIs by default for new players is just a little step towards making Spring more newbie-friendly.

Still if you're a pro player, it would be better if you had one nice Auto Upgrade Mexes ON/OFF button for builders instead of having groupAI button on every single unit in the game, don't you think? I am working on that button right now.

I still don't understand this "Spring is confusing" bit.

Personally, I've found many popular commercial games to be more confusing than Spring. Rome: Total War was confusing. Civilization 2 was confusing.

Pretty much every strategy game is confusing until you get the hang of the controls. Spring's interface is actually quite un-confusing! It has big friendly "move" "attack" etc. buttons. So what if there's one button that some people wouldn't know the function of? They just come here and look it up in the wiki, or ask in the lobby, or mess around with it until they figure it out, or just ignore it.

If you think the mods are confusing that's quite another issue. Take that up with modders. Don't demand that we dumb down the engine because *A has like 500 redundant units.

I think you're assuming idiocy on the part of Spring players.

And for the record, no, I would NOT like having "one nice Auto Upgrade Mexes On/Off" button for builders, kthx.

[Kloot]

If you want to make Spring friendlier to new
players, your efforts would be better spent
improving its documentation (hint: Lua tooltips)
rather than on removing or hiding functionality
because you happen to think it is confusing or
has no value. It makes no difference whether
the "select AI" button points to a Lua script or
to a group AI for anyone unaware of its purpose,
only what the label on top of it says.

[BrainDamage]

What if i am unable to use Luaui and the other widgets?

then you report it into the H&B section; even if LuaUI is no use for you, there could be more persons in the future that might want/need it and will benefit by having the problem solved before encoutering it

[Sleksa]

If you want to make Spring friendlier to new
players, your efforts would be better spent
improving its documentation (hint: Lua tooltips)
rather than on removing or hiding functionality
because you happen to think it is confusing or
has no value. It makes no difference whether
the "select AI" button points to a Lua script or
to a group AI for anyone unaware of its purpose,
only what the label on top of it says.

Agree

[BigHead]

Brain Damage & Kloot: This is getting a bit offtopic. I agree that Spring needs documentation badly. That's why I've written the html help widget. However I lack writing/designing skills to actually write the guide. I am more useful as a coder. Sleksa, you agree so go ahead and do it. You can even put pictures, lists and links to other page into it.
Now back on topic.

*typo: pages not pictures

[Kloot]

My post was completely ontopic regarding your proposal.

[Sheekel]

BIGHEAD:

First of all I'd like to say that I've never seen a request to have a feature REMOVED from spring.

Second, Kloot makes a valid point that documentation of features is obviously the better option here. I see no reason to disable features because YOU think they are confusing. Not all new players are idiots.

I actually went into the lobby and privately asked quite a few "new" (simply judging by their ranks) players what they though the most annoying thing about the spring engine was. The more common answers were:

sometimes the units dont fire right
countdown error
TASclient bugs
Map/mod downloading is cumbersome
Units get stuck

If you want to improve features that cause confusion and "annoyance," you should start with these.


I also asked these players about the groupAI and what they thought of it. Most either thought it was "somewhat useful" or didnt know what it was for. None of them regarded it as an "annoyance."

It's common for programs to have TONS of features that most users dont know how to use. For example, I use 3DSMax and it would take years for me to learn how to properly use every feature. Instead I read some documentation about what I wanted to know (modding Spring) and learned it in a very short time.


[b/]/[//b][b/][/b/]

BOLD!

[BigHead]

I propably shouldn't use the word remove. Hide would be better. People feel offended for some reason, when they read the word remove. I don't know what I've done to deserve such hatred. I wanted to make Spring better for both pros and new players. I offered help. In fact I already made the mex upgrader widget (still needs to be converted into the gadget button though).
I ignored a few really stupid posts and always replied politely, but guess I'll reply to the guy who wrote my name in huge bold font: Go fuck yourself.
I have enough of this thread, whoever is responsible please lock it.

Units get stuck

I already made a widget called BugFixer to address that.

*the edit was adding link to the bugfixer widget

[Snipawolf]

That is the spring community for ya. These guys hate changes. I could care less, one less button on my queue, if you ask me. I have never needed nor used any AIs...

[Saktoth]

We love you BigHead! You are a swell guy and we all think you're great at lots of stuff!

This is a tiny issue, dont get so worked up, people (Goes for all of you).

[SwiftSpear]

I voted yes. For me I just don't really like group AI's in general