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clericvash · Post by **clericvash** » 25 Sep 2007, 23:22

That is what frustrates me about the moderation of this place, people get let off for what they do and they become "above the law".

Just because your a fecking content creator you should not be allowed to bend the rules.

i say it AGAIN - This community and moderation are just a joke, the rules are good, but not enforced, at all.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 25 Sep 2007, 23:30

if the rules were enforced, this forum would die quickly

who the fuck wants to talk about the merits of gators v weasels vs copyrights again

or whategver the fuck you want to motuh off about

its a big circle jerk, people are on one side, people are on the other of side of soe position

if one position stfu'ed, the other wouldnt have anything to whine about

=> forum dies

except the occasional dev update

clericvash · Post by **clericvash** » 25 Sep 2007, 23:37

Dragon45 wrote:if the rules were enforced, this forum would die quickly

who the fuck wants to talk about the merits of gators v weasels vs copyrights again

or whategver the fuck you want to motuh off about

its a big circle jerk, people are on one side, people are on the other of side of soe position

if one position stfu'ed, the other wouldnt have anything to whine about

=> forum dies

except the occasional dev update

Then how do all the forums with tight moderation survive? Answer that smart-ass.

The answer is that people will learn to go by the rules and post meaningful discussions. Which creates more discussion.

And this is a serious question to anyone who won't come back with an answer like that which would usually be posted => what would you rather have, a forum full of trolls, stupid posts and useless crap that actually does turn people away, or a forum full of decent posts that people want to participate in?

Are you kids forgetting there is an off topic forum which is meant for all the crap to go into? Or are you just that annoying?

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 25 Sep 2007, 23:54

If moderation is to become tighter, then we really need a lightly moderated sub-forum.

Off-Topic could do this, but I feel it would be better to separate it into a different forum so that Off-Topic could be saved for semi-intelligent discussion.

A lightly-moderated sub-forum - one moderated only for illegal and adult content (hacks, cracks, links to kiddie porn, porn in general) - would give us somewhere to direct our aggressive energy and somewhere to move flamewars and excessively heated discussions.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 25 Sep 2007, 23:55

I could see that having some use.

LordMatt · Post by **LordMatt** » 26 Sep 2007, 00:13

tbh I think we should ban the high maintenance people on both sides (both the trolls and the trolled) if we really want to change things here. Otherwise we'll be having another thread just like this one in a few months...

Tired · Post by **Tired** » 26 Sep 2007, 00:48

I posit that once the bans start, you'll soon find only moderators left, and that because they're incapable of kicking themselves.

That being said, let the purge begin!^^

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 26 Sep 2007, 00:50

Actually, we can kick ourselves and each other.

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 26 Sep 2007, 01:16

Tired wrote:I posit that once the bans start, you'll soon find only moderators left

Not gonna happen, John. You imply that if anyone gets banned they won't return after the ban time has run out.

I kinda doubt that anything will happen in the very near future. Give it a month or two.

About the subforum, wasn't this suggested a long time ago? It's a good idea anyway. Settle your issues there and don't clutter up the important forums with your little embarassing hassles.

DemO · Post by **DemO** » 26 Sep 2007, 02:23

rattle wrote:
Tired wrote:I posit that once the bans start, you'll soon find only moderators left
Not gonna happen, John. You imply that if anyone gets banned they won't return after the ban time has run out.

I kinda doubt that anything will happen in the very near future. Give it a month or two.

About the subforum, wasn't this suggested a long time ago? It's a good idea anyway. Settle your issues there and don't clutter up the important forums with your little embarassing hassles.

Call it the CESSPOOL.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 26 Sep 2007, 04:02

LordMatt wrote:tbh I think we should ban the high maintenance people on both sides (both the trolls and the trolled) if we really want to change things here. Otherwise we'll be having another thread just like this one in a few months...

yeah because people like me who have been around for a while have not had to deal with enough trolling. Instead, when I finally kersplode after too much trolling I am banned.

So the way it works is that I can be around but when I finally bite back I would have to leave? NO THANKS.

BTW swift, if you are going to single me out at least mention caydr as his behavior was far beyond my own. I personally don't enjoy being pointed at in such away as one of the single inflammatory entities when you leave other more extreme individuals out of the picture.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 26 Sep 2007, 04:25

like af said...

you have a singular individual who is constantly targeted by seemingly minor attacks.

The attacks continue despite the individual being placid and calm

the individual has enough

the individual becomes indignant

the next thing that can be perceived as an attack will receive the full brunt of the withheld anger.

This is normal in internet culture, I do this some times. However, there have been many cases of individuals going way out of line. At that point the moderation staff has acted well.

However, permitting the continued existence of trolling elements can cause the inevitable kersplode. The content creators do what we do for various reasons, one of which is that we like what we do. There is an emotional core to all work of this nature. I feel that is where the problem for content creators lies.

Now, personally, I love how tired steps over the line and I am singled out and vilified. This happens too often for my taste, also I take resentment to the sentiment that we content creators are on some sort of pedestal.

Want to get into it.

Here is the real skinny, if the content creators or devs felt used or stepped on, motivation goes down. I have seen devs and myself cut back from spring work because singular individuals piss us off soo much that we lose motivation for a bit. Now, note that many of us stay to it and continue on out of love for our work. After a while it does wear on you. People get upset when individual devs or content people are belligerent or defensive.

Believe me, I want to just work on my projects, be happy and share my work. It doesn't work out that way. Simply put there is only soo much people can take. Yeah, in the over 5000 posts I have made, I have said some mean things and probably done some really asshole things. However, that is not a majority of my posts. There are people who have spent a majority of their time here trolling. They are not long term members because frankly they do not care enough to really stick around or to post that often.

I am not and have never said that I am beyond discipline or reprimand but I do believe that I do not deserve to be vilified either.

Zpock · Post by **Zpock** » 26 Sep 2007, 04:26

Woah, start banning people and enforce strict "laws" and the bad guys have really struck jackpot, you're playing it right into their hands.

Ban huge contributors like smoth just cause they get a bit emotional and eccentric after spending 100hs of hours working on spring stuff? For defending themselves? I'd rather have a great contributor then a purified forum thanks.

It's just some stupid posts in a forum, just ignore them and they go away. Start "fighting back" and they win.

I 100% agree with swiftspear and I think it's more much more disguting that you're sniping at him for his work trying to keep the community together rather then anything the main "criminal" is on about.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 26 Sep 2007, 04:31

just want to emphasize once more to the people who think the little things make no difference..

little things over time can drive people insane in real life.

content creators have to be around for the duration of their projects which can take years!

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 26 Sep 2007, 06:26

Simply put, what I want to do with the spring community is

A: create a place that's reasonably safe for most age groups to play, this is why we watch content in #main and the forums and discipline people who aren't sensitive to the fact that the things they say might be inappropriate to the context.

B: Create a fun and free place for people all over the world to hang out, communicate, and play.

Banning quickly and strictly is NOT fun, it's NOT free, it's a practice of protection against external evils, and frankly, I think believing it as necessary is an indication of a VERY poor understanding of what this place fundamentally is. This place is a meeting place for both players and developers, neither group will be preferanced, neither group will be protected in abstract against ethereal abuses beyond what can be expected out of normal conversation and interaction in a group of people with such diverse internationality and objective in terms of their membership.

I don't do things just for the sake of doing them, I don't make rules just for the sake of making rules, I don't enforce rules just for the reality that there are rules, there is an objective trying to be met here, and the argument that indicates that things should be done differently is completely ignorant of the objective.

Facepunch is a perfect example of why I'm justified. Garry has taken what is a website for a video game, and turned it into a courtroom and a soap opera. It's not a fun place at all, you feel like a jew under the watchful eye of the nazi sniper. We're all talking about a game here, you're obligated to take things more lightly just due to the fact that fundamentally we're all just here to have fun.

I fully encourage content creators to maintain private environments for them selfs if they feel it's necessary. The reality is that it's not sane to expect us here to remove everyone else who does something stupid and makes your job harder to do if you decide to communicate primarily through these forums.

[edit] Smoth, I'm not trying to blame something on you or single you out. I'm just making it clear, if we increase the size of the blade, it still cuts both ways. The assumption that problems on these forums are restricted to a small quaint group of professional trolls is flat out wrong. We have as much or more problems between content creators as well. I just listed names that were involved specifically in the last incident with Tired, certainly argh, AF, caydr, spiked, fang, even peet, have all been involved in incidences as well and can share blame to varying degrees in some cases.

Fundamentally, if I ban you for flaming for 2 weeks as opposed to 1 day, does that change who you are? does that make you fear my wrath? does it make you think 3 times as hard the next time some idiot spites you? I'm far more inclined to believe that if you're going to think things through, a short period is more than enough to sit out and realize what you've done wrong, unless you flat out have the intention of fucking up people's day, in which case you'll find spring moderation MUCH MUCH MUCH less forgiving.

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 26 Sep 2007, 06:54

rattle wrote:
Tired wrote:I posit that once the bans start, you'll soon find only moderators left
Not gonna happen, John. You imply that if anyone gets banned they won't return after the ban time has run out.

I kinda doubt that anything will happen in the very near future. Give it a month or two.

About the subforum, wasn't this suggested a long time ago? It's a good idea anyway. Settle your issues there and don't clutter up the important forums with your little embarassing hassles.

I've only suggested it, oh, three times... I've only been ignored, oh, three times...

I'm glad to see that at least some people understand that the questions I posted previously are actually valid and require some thought, instead of posting a knee-jerk reaction.

But, I made a mistake. We need to back up a couple of steps. The questions I asked can come later. For now, we need to consider and answer this question:

What is the purpose of the Spring forums?

Our rules and moderation policy need to be crafted to further this purpose. No good policies can be made unless we understand this concept. Once we have answered this question, then and only then is it possible to actually create a policy that makes sense within the context.

(I'm guessing that some might be going "wtf, it should be obvious what the rules are". To which I answer: consider this. Imagine that you are moderating a forum for depressed teens. What rules would you enforce there? Now, imagine that you are moderating a forum for discussion and creation of death metal music. Would the rules you would enforce be different from those of the first forum?)

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 26 Sep 2007, 08:09

The rules ARE crafted for the purpose. This is supposed to be a fun, light community, where it's ok to be whoever you are, it's all about having fun and playing the game. Slapping on the chainmail and raising the banhammer high would create the opposite environment from what we really should be trying to have here.

This place is,

A: A gaming forum, gaming is about fun

B: An open sourced development project, OS is about freedom

C: A center of communication, communication is about talking

Our rules suit our objective to the TEE.

They could be enforced a little more often and in a little more timely manner, granted, we don't have the moderation staff for these forums we really should, but that being said, the style should always stay what it is now.

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 26 Sep 2007, 08:29

Again, I wish you no particular offense, swift, but I'd argue that this forum, more often then not, is neither fun nor light, and the more holistic approach to moderation has been in place for a little while. As a case study, I would say it has failed, and a new approach is necessary. It's not like we're considering options here - something has failed, and the forum is being conducted inappropriately. Therefore, a solution is required - and that solution cannot be 'stay the course', because there is pretty clear evidence that something needs to change.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 26 Sep 2007, 08:42

Something is going to change. The moderation is more numerous than before, and we are discussing changes hotly.

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 26 Sep 2007, 08:48

SwiftSpear wrote:The rules ARE crafted for the purpose. This is supposed to be a fun, light community, where it's ok to be whoever you are, it's all about having fun and playing the game. Slapping on the chainmail and raising the banhammer high would create the opposite environment from what we really should be trying to have here.

This place is,

A: A gaming forum, gaming is about fun

B: An open sourced development project, OS is about freedom

C: A center of communication, communication is about talking

Our rules suit our objective to the TEE.

They could be enforced a little more often and in a little more timely manner, granted, we don't have the moderation staff for these forums we really should, but that being said, the style should always stay what it is now.

You haven't really addressed the core of my question, so I'll explain it a little bit more directly.

Let's say that the purpose of the Spring forums is to encourage and foster content creation. This means that we'd want to make the environment creative, but we'd want to make sure that it is structured and work-oriented. Posting irrelevant or unhelpful comments would be discouraged, and people who consistently made posts of that sort would be asked to shape up or be banned. We'd want to keep animosity to a minimum and would probably ban any sort of non-content-creation discussion likely to create animosity, such as political and religious threads.

Now, let's say that the purpose was instead to develop and refine Spring's source code. Much like the above scenario, the environment would have to be structured and work-oriented; it would also have to be very oriented toward technical discussion. People who insist on "contributing" to technical discussion about Spring's source code without having at least basic knowledge of programming fundamentals would be encouraged to share their ideas elsewhere.

For a third scenario, let's say that the purpose is to provide a general community discussion forum. The rules would be much more lax than in the above examples, at the expense of hampering content creation and source code development. People would be allowed to be angry and to offend others.

----------

Now, I'm not saying that you're completely off-track here. I feel like your ideas need more development, as you have not really stated a concrete purpose. You've stated that the Spring forums should be fun, have freedom, and encourage communication - these are good starting points, but need further elaboration.

Fun. What sort of fun, and for whom? Different people have different concepts of what is fun. Some people here clearly find great fun in provoking sensitive people and watching their ultra-defensive reactions. Others find fun in posting irrelevant and almost witty one-liners in every thread. Yet others find fun in figuring out how they can derail conversations the fastest. Some find heated debate fun; many others find it aggravating. Some think that political and religious discussion is fun, and others are prone to become angry at the mere mention of politics or religion.

Freedom. Freedom to do what? Clearly we're not trying for absolute freedom here, or else there would be no rules and no moderators. Absolute freedom would mean that these forums would resemble /b/.

Communication. What sort of communication? Communication about the Spring source code? Content creation? Other games? Topics irrelevant to Spring? Sensitive topics? Topics requiring maturity? Adult-themed topics? Flamewars? Works of fiction? Trolling? Political discussion? Critical commentary on major religions? Links to hacks and cracks?

Essentially, if I provide a neutral party with your post, asked him to create a set of rules in accordance with the principles in your post, and told him not to make any assumptions and to use nothing but the information in your post, the outcome would be the subject of a coin toss - either he says "not enough information" or says "no rules, no moderation".

Spring RTS Engine

Recent Forum Discussions & Locked Threads