Oh come on already! If you all want more players, then YOU ALL PLAY MORE! Must be at least 8 posters in this thread alone that never play the game, let alone host - another full game for prime time. =)
Like a bunch of old billionaires talking about how to spread communism for the good of the people. My sides are starting to ache.... ~~
Spread the good word
Moderator: Moderators
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
Thing is, we all have different tastes, are on at different times, etc.JoseJoas wrote:Oh come on already! If you all want more players, then YOU ALL PLAY MORE! Must be at least 8 posters in this thread alone that never play the game, let alone host - another full game for prime time. =)
Like a bunch of old billionaires talking about how to spread communism for the good of the people. My sides are starting to ache.... ~~
i.e. you might be hosting a game of TA, which nobody from this thread cares to touch. Someone else might host a 2v2 on an 8x8 map, which I wouldn't play.
If it was just a matter of "play or don't play" nobody would be complaining; we'd all join one of the infinite number of SpeedMetal games.
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
Sure.neddiedrow wrote:Felix, you think we will be able to get some more 1944 games in tonight, incidentally?
I'll idle around in #s44, football game is on from 8:15 to probably 10:45 or so (eastern time) and I'll try to get my classwork done while watching that. Afterwards I'd love to get some games in.
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Mr.Frumious
- Posts: 139
- Joined: 06 Jul 2006, 17:47
I play as much as I can but unfortunately I end up waiting for an hour to either host or play in a game, and by that stage I only have a short amount of time left just to play.
and that's not even looking at all the problems with games that fail to start, smurfs ruining the balance and making the game terrible, etc etc.
That said I'm always good for a game :)
and that's not even looking at all the problems with games that fail to start, smurfs ruining the balance and making the game terrible, etc etc.
That said I'm always good for a game :)
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RavingManiac
- Posts: 81
- Joined: 18 Jul 2007, 07:06
Saturday and Sunday are the days where people play more? Strange cause I hardly manage to get myself in some game those days...
I think spring is a great rts engine and if people dont play it it must be because they dont know about it or dont like strategy... Hoping that it is not the second, we should in fact advertise it more... Think im gonna spam about
it in all forums I post into :)
Tried to tell some school friends but they are all too dumb/lazy to try it out...
I think spring is a great rts engine and if people dont play it it must be because they dont know about it or dont like strategy... Hoping that it is not the second, we should in fact advertise it more... Think im gonna spam about
it in all forums I post into :)
Tried to tell some school friends but they are all too dumb/lazy to try it out...
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clumsy_culhane
- Posts: 370
- Joined: 30 Jul 2007, 10:27
i think our biggest problem is the noobs get bagged and kicked in the lobby, and a lot of people dont even make it to the lobby. they try out single player and hate it.. i think we need to revamp our base package to make it more noob friendly.. at least include the quickstart guide in .txt format or something.
agree totally. The number of times I see a newbie get kicked from a game they've joined with no reason given, actually people seem to get kicked from hosted games a lot often for no reason. Also people tend to be biased against spectators. Maybe we should encourage newbies to watch a game or two... or maybe we could have an option for a hosted game to say that it's newbie friendly. Of course the whole ranking system is so up the creek but that's another issue.clumsy_culhane wrote:i think our biggest problem is the noobs get bagged and kicked in the lobby, and a lot of people dont even make it to the lobby. they try out single player and hate it.. i think we need to revamp our base package to make it more noob friendly.. at least include the quickstart guide in .txt format or something.
It would be nice is the lobby could indicate a person's ping, a common problem is people who join games where they're gonna get a high ping (e.g. Aussie hosted games tend to suck majorly for EU located people).
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1v0ry_k1ng
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
spring does get boring after however many hours. the buzz fades plus this is start of university term for some and hard time at school for others, theres just not going to be many about atm.. check the stats at winter, we'll probably be upto a half decent amount... springs going to get old and technology is advancing. on the other hand, the new games release like supcom and that are nooby simplified shit for people who want their games to play themselves because they are scared of having to play, spring is at least an old boy, only everything gets old sooner or latter
I think a lot of the past contribution to player retention in spring came from a large percentage of the player base having hardware that isn't fast enough to run most recent games to any reasonable level, so people simply didn't have many games to choose between, but spring was one of them.
Lots of people have been upgrading lately and you can get pretty decent hardware pretty cheap now that will run most games pretty reasonably. People have more games to take up their time and more options than, say, Spring or Poker or CS 1.6.
And:
-Lots more work for the user to set Spring up ready to play, compared to other games.
-Getting into a game that starts and finishes successfully can take much longer than many other games
-Playerbase is small, tight knit and not friendly to newcomers
-No single-player campaign or tutorial readily packaged with Spring
-Very steep learning curve unless you are tought by someone who already knows how to play (unlikely)
-Lobby interface is reasonably good functionality wise but not even remotely visually appealing (doesn't get newcomers in the mood - often discourages them in fact)
-Problems hosting games for many people, and sometimes joining them (too lazy or dumb to fix them.)
-Little to no advertising/marketing of Spring compared to commercial titles.
-Limited variety in maps and mods hosted.
-Limited number of players from anywhere outside of europe/america to host for each other and play together
-Website in serious need of overhaul or updates.(being worked on I know)
-Player base is predominantly students who have less time for Spring for large segments of the year, and less activity during week days.
-No real diversification between highly skilled, skilled, average, noob and total newcomer players (rank really doesnt tell much and isn't a good measure - causes commotion and frustration for all of these players in team games)
-Ladder/tournament support is there but not taken advantage of by the vast majority (should be - makes for better matched, more organized games and some friendly competition as a motivator)
-Segmented communities (i.e. asian community on different main server, many people play SP/Lan instead of internet play)
= BAD NEWS FOR SPRING.
Lots of people have been upgrading lately and you can get pretty decent hardware pretty cheap now that will run most games pretty reasonably. People have more games to take up their time and more options than, say, Spring or Poker or CS 1.6.
And:
-Lots more work for the user to set Spring up ready to play, compared to other games.
-Getting into a game that starts and finishes successfully can take much longer than many other games
-Playerbase is small, tight knit and not friendly to newcomers
-No single-player campaign or tutorial readily packaged with Spring
-Very steep learning curve unless you are tought by someone who already knows how to play (unlikely)
-Lobby interface is reasonably good functionality wise but not even remotely visually appealing (doesn't get newcomers in the mood - often discourages them in fact)
-Problems hosting games for many people, and sometimes joining them (too lazy or dumb to fix them.)
-Little to no advertising/marketing of Spring compared to commercial titles.
-Limited variety in maps and mods hosted.
-Limited number of players from anywhere outside of europe/america to host for each other and play together
-Website in serious need of overhaul or updates.(being worked on I know)
-Player base is predominantly students who have less time for Spring for large segments of the year, and less activity during week days.
-No real diversification between highly skilled, skilled, average, noob and total newcomer players (rank really doesnt tell much and isn't a good measure - causes commotion and frustration for all of these players in team games)
-Ladder/tournament support is there but not taken advantage of by the vast majority (should be - makes for better matched, more organized games and some friendly competition as a motivator)
-Segmented communities (i.e. asian community on different main server, many people play SP/Lan instead of internet play)
= BAD NEWS FOR SPRING.
Spring dosn't get old like commercial games. It's evolving at a very quick unrelenting speed. LUA can really open up modding once it's properly explored, developed and documented. The graphics can be improved upon, someone just needs to add in stuff like bump mapping and more high quality models. A better animating system could be introduced someday. Mods like SWS adn 1944 are going to be released some day. A lobby with automatic match making could be possible also. The future looks good for spring IMO.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
I started playing spring 3 years ago, and when I started playing breaching 100 players in a day was considered amazing. I don't really recall, but it seems to me that last summer (the one before this one) our up times were around 150 players most of the time...
It sucks to be only around 50 players during a slow night, but its still not the low point in spring's career by any means.
It sucks to be only around 50 players during a slow night, but its still not the low point in spring's career by any means.
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
Then let's fix them! The great thing about an open-source project and a community that is encouraged to add on to it is that we can fix problems like these.DemO wrote:problems
I'm sure someone here can make a user-friendly installer. Heck, if nobody does it, I'll make one in a couple of months when I have the ability to do so.-Lots more work for the user to set Spring up ready to play, compared to other games.
I posted previously stating reasons why we should not have an auto-match feature. I've rethought the idea and think that it could add a lot to the user-friendliness of the game.-Getting into a game that starts and finishes successfully can take much longer than many other games
This is something that can only be fixed through grassroots community action.-Playerbase is small, tight knit and not friendly to newcomers
EVERYONE who reads this post can help.
1) Next time you see a new player asking a question in #main, take some time to help him with whatever his issues are. For bonus points, do it personally, via PM - this is a much more helpful and inviting experience for the new player. It's like the difference between getting telephone tech support from "Susan" in Bangalore and having an experienced technician actually come to your house and demonstrate how to fix the problem.
2) We all need to realize that the community being welcoming and inviting to newcomers is a positive thing for all of us, and act accordingly. Being welcoming and inviting means much more than simply tolerating a one-stripe player on your team in a game. Try to keep hostile conversations out of #main; if you really must get into a flame war with someone, take it to PM or to a side channel. When a new player joins and insults are flying, it gives a bad first impression - and, unfortunately, a lasting one; if the newbie does stay, he will believe that the community here is hostile and act accordingly. It's a self-reinforcing cycle. Keep in mind that your friendly banter with others may be interpreted by someone not "in the know" as hostility.
3) When you see anything that seems unwelcoming, overly hostile, or annoying, take the offending individual aside in PM and calmly and politely explain that what he is doing is not welcome in the Spring community, and ask him to stop and to change his approach. While I don't want to speak on behalf of the moderators, I hope that at least one moderator will step up and volunteer to do this on your behalf if you yourself are unable to or unsuccessful; the voice of a moderator may carry more weight than that of a simple player.
[NB. I'm not saying that I'm not guilty of any of these "sins". I have done not-so-nice things in the past; I've been involved in #main flamewars, I've trolled the forums, I've acted in such a way as to antagonize people. I recognize these errors, I'm sorry, and I don't want this thread to become the "what has Felix done that contradicts his post" thread.]
Let's assemble a team to make both of these. Really. One person probably won't be able to make a single-player campaign and tutorial by himself, but I'm sure we have enough talent in the community to get a polished product out.-No single-player campaign or tutorial readily packaged with Spring
A tutorial would help; even though there are many different mods, there are common gameplay aspects to all of them. Expanding, capping metal spots, combat micromanagement, keeping the economy running and expanding, multitasking, and other things are present in nearly all mods; if the tutorial covers these areas well in the process of introducing the basic OTA-esque units in the most common mods, it will prepare players to play other mods.-Very steep learning curve unless you are tought by someone who already knows how to play (unlikely)
Also, the lobby should come auto-configured to join #main and a #help channel, where experienced players who are willing to help out new players would be encouraged to idle and be available to answer any questions and provide assistance. #help would be a strictly moderated channel; any people engaging in non-help-related chatter, game advertisement, etc. would be cordially invited to move it to #main.
Very true. IMO an entirely new lobby is required, both client- and server-side. This new lobby should be designed with appearance and functionality both considered; the current lobby works well, but looks as if it was inspired by a 1995 IRC client.-Lobby interface is reasonably good functionality wise but not even remotely visually appealing (doesn't get newcomers in the mood - often discourages them in fact)
1) The new lobby should get rid of the #channel syntax. This isn't IRC; "Main" or "General Chat" looks more inviting than "#main".
2) The new lobby client should expand its functionality; tools for new and experienced players should be integrated, including a map browser, a mod browser, a connection diagnostic and assistance function, integrated game settings changing, a channel browser, an easy way to create a new channel and invite people to it, and more that I'm sure will be thought of as we progress. Moderators should be invited to discuss what tools would be helpful to them.
3) I don't want to knock Betalord, as he's done a great job, but I really feel like the new lobby should be developed and maintained by people who are more active in the community.
4) Development should be done in C++ for greater consistency with the engine. This will allow more crossover between people who submit patches and develop for the engine and people who do so for the lobby, which I feel is great synergy.
I think that a Help channel and an integrated network diagnostic tool would help a lot. Providing a written walkthrough on how to open the necessary ports and the like would be good; though I'm sure we're all elite g4m3rz and can open and close ports with our eyes closed, we need to be welcoming to those who aren't so technically inclined. (Believe it or not, but I have no idea how to control ports on my new router.)-Problems hosting games for many people, and sometimes joining them (too lazy or dumb to fix them.)
I believe Neddie was working on this. We can probably help him by continuing to make trailers and posting them on YouTube, by taking good screenshots that show of various unique features of the engine and posting them, and by personally advertising it to our friends and on other forums where an informational post on Spring would be welcome.-Little to no advertising/marketing of Spring compared to commercial titles.
This is sort of a "chicken and egg" problem and I won't get into it here.-Limited variety in maps and mods hosted.
IMO this isn't too big of a problem; most of the online gaming population is in Europe and North America.0-Limited number of players from anywhere outside of europe/america to host for each other and play together
Skill-based ranking has been hotly debated on several occasions, and I'm not going to touch it here. Personally I'm against it, but I can certainly see its benefits as well.-Website in serious need of overhaul or updates.(being worked on I know)
-Player base is predominantly students who have less time for Spring for large segments of the year, and less activity during week days.
-No real diversification between highly skilled, skilled, average, noob and total newcomer players (rank really doesnt tell much and isn't a good measure - causes commotion and frustration for all of these players in team games)
Ladder and tourney play needs to be integrated into the new lobby. Ladder games would be organized by mod and would be created in a similar fashion as auto-match ones.-Ladder/tournament support is there but not taken advantage of by the vast majority (should be - makes for better matched, more organized games and some friendly competition as a motivator)
I have some ideas for implementation of tourney play, but don't want to get into technical discussion here.
Unicode support definitely needs to be in the new lobby, as does a ping indicator. One of the Chinese players came here and said that they use their own lobby and server because the current one does not support Chinese characters. I've heard the same sorts of complaints about lack of extended character support from people from the Middle East, from Scandinavia, from Russia, etc.-Segmented communities (i.e. asian community on different main server, many people play SP/Lan instead of internet play)
It's good news that we are equipped to do something about it.= BAD NEWS FOR SPRING.
I'd be willing to lead concept development for a new lobby. As some of you may know, I'm currently at a school for computer game development (Full Sail, Winter Park, FL). I'm only two months in. Starting next month, I begin learning C++; we completely learn the language in four months.* It should be relatively easy to study networking on my own once I have a handle on the structure, syntax, and programming methods of the language. We are strongly encouraged to start or participate in side projects on our own, and this would be a perfect one for me.
I feel like a new lobby, one designed for a broader user base and with both the current state of the community and the future in mind, would help to tackle a lot of our problems and would provide a framework by which we can move forward in making Spring more popular and more user-friendly.
Comments? If you guys feel like this is a good starting point for discussion, someone copypasta this post into a new thread so we can keep it somewhat organized.
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*NB. Classes are one month each; there are two classes per month; classes are typically 8 hours a day, 3 days a week, with 2 to 5 more hours of work outside of class depending on which class it is. Classes are difficult and move very quickly.
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
The thing is, we need new or at least significantly upgraded server software as well.tombom wrote:There are already a lot of lobbys. SpringLobby is in C++ and can already do all the basics fine. If you wanted to work on that or throw out some concepts for a better UI I'm sure people would be happy ~_~
Honestly, I'd like to pull all of the new and good features from the other lobbies together. Call me someone against the spirit of open source, but I feel like it makes sense to have one standard lobby, just as we have one standard engine. I'm not against other lobbies per se, but I feel like we'd reap more rewards in having more engine <-> client and client <-> server integration, at the expense of making alternate lobby clients obsolete and imposing more technical requirements on third-party lobby clients.
I'd also like to see more lobby <-> mod/map download integration. It seems like the current development track is resistant to integrating the lobby and Unknown Files more closely. It makes sense to me that you'd be able to find a map on UF, download, and install it, all from within the lobby client and requiring no more than typing in the name and clicking a few times; if you join a game which is using a map you don't have, you should be able to click on the (blank) minimap and have the client automatically find, download, and install the map for you, and automatically update the map list at the end of the process.