Tired Annihilation fake link

[Warlord Zsinj]

As I see it the divide between the "Everyone does it so it's okay" and the "Stop stealing!" oppinions runs right between those who make their own content and those who steal theirs.

QFT.

[smoth]

it is not and never was a matter of elitism, we make our content because we believe that stealing is wrong.

[det]

Copying. You mean that you believe (unauthorized) copying is wrong.

[Warlord Zsinj]

If we retain copyright then it's effectively the same, det.

[det]

No, it's not. They are completely different concepts.

[KDR_11k]

"Any sufficiently long discussion devolves into semantics" (can't remember who said that)

[Neddie]

I'm sure both Felix and I have said that.

[SwiftSpear]

TBH i think UF shouldn't had removed TiA Because its full of copyright issues already... If tro don't want his stuff to be used he shouldn't put it online, We all know that our "honor" system is not 100 % proof.

Not sure if TRO did include a license? but if he did he should talk to the cops, maybe they can help out.

License is irrelevant. Copyright is the default proposition, and permission to violate copyright must be explicitly granted... but nobody will enforce it anyways, since laywers cost money and there is no money to gain in this (what, you think Tired has deep pockets?) and this is somewhere below finding little Jimmy's missing pencil-case on the list of priorities for the police.

The argument has been made that derivative work copyright isn't nearly as strict. This is true. Effectively the question is weather TRO's work is derivative or not, and exactly what that means. The reality is, that's a legal question above spring moderation's expertise or responsibility.

I can appreciate that TRO is pissed off because someone basically spited his work, I can appreciate Tired is pissed of because people jumped all over him for pissing TRO off, I can't however really judge legal right/wrong in this context.

Ethically, my opinion... TA/Spring units are basically open sourced by nature, if an author publicly distributes source content that is free and easy to copy I don't think they should expect imaginary rules to protect this content, and CERTAINLY I don't think they deserve to pick and choose who they allow to use free content. Fundamentally I just can't rationalize people treating free content like it's somehow paying their bills so they need to hoard it to them selfs.

[zwzsg]

If you listen more carefully, you'll see that tro's reason for not letting Tired use the czar isn't because he wants to keep it to myself to pay his bill, but because he cares enough about his creation that he feels they must be used properly, that is, talonish looking unit in a talon army, armish looking units in the arm army, corish looking units in the core army. There's lots of details in the texture style, in the length/width ratio of barrels, in the shape of turret, in the outline of the hulls, etc... that define the look of each faction. People for whome units are only a stats sheet may not notice, but for people who have actually modelled and textured the 3do, it's much more glaring. So it's not because he hope to makes money or because he wants to hoard them all, but simply because he care so much about his creation he won't stand them being ruined by being thrown in a ragtag of mismatched units.

Ethically, my opinion... TA/Spring units are basically open sourced by nature, if an author publicly distributes source content that is free and easy to copy I don't think they should expect imaginary rules to protect this content, and CERTAINLY I don't think they deserve to pick and choose who they allow to use free content.

mp3, divx, and cracked software are easy to get for free and easy to copy, what right has the RIAA and MPAA to expect their imaginary rule to be followed?

Also, are you saying the only way for people to respect a bit of fair play when borrowing other's works is to developp a way to encrypt and lock mod files?


That said, TRO abusing his position as a FU administrator to play dirty tricks is certainly reprehensible too.

[KDR_11k]

I think it's fairly telling that those who say there should be no restrictions on content are the ones who don't make it themselves. I don't think this is just out of a conflit of interest (those who don't make content need to take theirs from others so free stealing would be beneficial to them) or at least I hope so but I think the mere act of seeing content only as something you grab for free and then utilize creates a mentality that the content is interchangeable and of little value.

If content is of so little value that it shouldn't be protected, why do you take it? Surely it can't be much work to create your own instead if it's that worthless?

[CautionToTheWind]

Of course its not a mistake. If he ends up making something good with it and giving it to the world, how could it be a mistake?

So you think that as long as the result is good in someone's oppinion it's justified to be a total asshole and take things you have no right to?

It is not good in "someone's opinion". Its good overall. Those that dislike the result can just not play it and play one of the many alternatives. Those that like it get to play it. Its win-win.

Personally i think contributors should be acknowledged and the whole being an asshole part is optional. However that's how Tired chose to play it. The way i see it, the world and the internet is full of assholes, and not many are making interesting mods for my favourite engine. So i say we keep this asshole around and let him work.

[KDR_11k]

It is not good in "someone's opinion". Its good overall. Those that dislike the result can just not play it and play one of the many alternatives. Those that like it get to play it. Its win-win.

Personally i think contributors should be acknowledged and the whole being an asshole part is optional. However that's how Tired chose to play it. The way i see it, the world and the internet is full of assholes, and not many are making interesting mods for my favourite engine. So i say we keep this asshole around and let him work.

So if someone produces something which anyone considers good he can act like an asshole all he wants? Hey, thanks, I think I'll just start trolling the boards then!

[SwiftSpear]

Ethically, my opinion... TA/Spring units are basically open sourced by nature, if an author publicly distributes source content that is free and easy to copy I don't think they should expect imaginary rules to protect this content, and CERTAINLY I don't think they deserve to pick and choose who they allow to use free content.

mp3, divx, and cracked software are easy to get for free and easy to copy, what right has the RIAA and MPAA to expect their imaginary rule to be followed?

Commercial music is obviously not free content, it's not intended to be distributed for free, someone legitimately does not get paid if a song is copied and downloaded rather than bought.

That being said, TBH I think the commercialization of data is one of the dumbest things humanity has ever done. This is all opinion, but to me, it just really doesn't make alot of sense to develop a system where immensely powerful software, tools for creation, stories and artwork, and the many other things computer technology allows to be done quickly and for virtually no cost of making infinite copies, and then place a bunch of arbitrary restrictions on who can use it, how, and why. Really, lets take one of the most powerfully designed systems of work of all time, and gum it up with some backwards concept of capitalistic right that instantly breaks when not dealing with material objects.

[SwiftSpear]

KDR: The opposite, content is of such immense value that it's innately wrong to hoard it.

[KDR_11k]

KDR: The opposite, content is of such immense value that it's innately wrong to hoard it.

Wrong to hoard and wrong to take are different things though.

Copyright is intended to allow creating a business model around selling that data since even though its reproduction may be cheap its creation is not. A creator who does not wish to commercialize his work is free to distribute it without restriction, only a creator who does not wish to do all this just out of kindness is affected by copyright. Unless said creator is so uncreative he can't invent his own cartoon mouse and just HAS to steal Mickey Mouse.

Seriously, I don't see why creators need to be able to take from others to create (and don't trot out the monomyth nonsense, you could detail Bush's biography and end up fulfilling the monomyth criteria because it's so broad). There is nothing that you cannot replicate in a way that's sufficient for your purposes yet noninfringing. You probably don't require a 1:1 copy of the thing you wish to use, you can just create something new that utilizes the attributes you need (in this particular case Tired could have made anything that could fly and shoot a big laser downwards without needing any of TRO's work, especially considering TRO's work was optimized for OTA, not Spring) and you'll quickly find that you have the additional freedom of defining many things about that work and can shape it completely into what you want.

If you don't know how to create the things you need then learn it or ask someone to do it for you, don't just take something!

IMO stricter content locks create more variety. If everyone had no qualms taking Cavedog and UU content Spring wouldn't be nearly as varied in its mod selection as it is, everyone would just reuse old material instead of going through the more difficult process of making their own stuff.

[Erom]

I see a lot of people complaining about rules that seem arbitrary and silly to them. IMO, being adult enough to respect and play by the rules of copyright is essential in an open source project. If you don't respect your fellow content creators enough to make sure you _know_ what can be taken and what can't, and seek permission and respect permission, then you have no business here or in any other open source project. I fully support the removal of Tired's mod, and I fully support the moderation of this site Re:Tired given his sissy fit once people called him out.

And for those of you who would like to point out the contradiction of the OTA mods - I believe any mod based on Atari IP should not be distributed through the main site, and I believe they should all carry a disclaimer on the download page, in the mod archive, and anywhere else that would be obvious that they are used without permission and require that you own TA to use.

Edit: On a slightly different note, I also think the above post makes some really solid points.

[rattle]

Can't believe this is getting argued about for four more pages.

TRO = right, Tired = left (in the rain)

[Argh]

I think it's fairly telling that those who say there should be no restrictions on content are the ones who don't make it themselves. I don't think this is just out of a conflit of interest (those who don't make content need to take theirs from others so free stealing would be beneficial to them) or at least I hope so but I think the mere act of seeing content only as something you grab for free and then utilize creates a mentality that the content is interchangeable and of little value.

If content is of so little value that it shouldn't be protected, why do you take it? Surely it can't be much work to create your own instead if it's that worthless?

QFT.

Which is why every time we have a discussion about ways to share content, and the rules that need to pertain to it, the trolls go bananas, even though they draw nothing, model nothing, paint nothing, animate nothing, code nothing, and do nothing that isn't directly derivative, or just slash-n-burn piracy.

I don't complain about the CA guys using FX code that I pioneered, for example. They visibly worked very hard to improve it, and succeeded in making original work, much of it superior to what was in NanoBlobs. That, and the CA guys asked politely. Which makes a huge difference. They didn't have to- the FX code was CC'd. But they did ask!

That's a whole different realm from outright piracy.

If you do not make real content, stay out of these threads, you have no right to an opinion here. You simply don't understand why the creative people who actually get things done feel a strong sense of ownership and desire to see that if their work is used, then it is used honorably.

Tired's actions weren't honorable- first he didn't ask until he'd already used the content, then he refused to take it back out (if I'd been in his shoes, I'd have said, "fine, bitch, I'll make a very similar model and that's that", but see, thieves don't have the skills to do that, and the people with the skills don't steal).

Then to top off his blunders, he didn't credit TRO for his work.

No offense meant, Mr. D, I know you are a nice guy, and I do not doubt your skills or your belief that Tired meant well, but ran afoul of TRO's notorious artistic temperament. But that kind of behavior doesn't make me want to slap his wrist- it makes me want to deny him any future venues of release. I don't make that decision, which is probably a good thing, but that's about how I feel about it.

As much as I like to rag on TRO, that's not cool, and nobody should have that happen to them.

[Felix the Cat]

"Any sufficiently long discussion devolves into semantics" (can't remember who said that)

or Nazis, you can't forget Nazis. Godwin's Law and all.

This thread is approaching the point where it deserves a Fifty Hitler Post├é┬®.


---


Really, it's all about respect and courtesy.

If you respect someone, you will not use his work without his permission. If he denies you permission, you will thank him and move on.

We all know that Tired is acquainted with neither concept, so none of this fuss should be surprising to anyone.

What I'm curious about is why TRO was even asked in the first place if the intention was for the unit to be used regardless of the answer. If one believes that one is entitled to use another's work, then one certainly need not ask the other for permission.

[JoseJoas]

Four pages of antagonism, and here I remain peacefully sublime. To those who've defended me, thanks, but there's really no need - the poor kids who live in these forums and spout fancy in-talk like "1337," "n00b," and "troll" aren't really looking for rational or intelligent discourse, so there's no point in wasting your efforts on them.^.~

All the same, I feel profoundly grateful that a portion of all of your valued lives are dedicated to me. =)

Moreover, I'd like to invite you to a celebratory game of TA out of gratitude for your profound respect and admiration for me. UF's down, so here's the link: http://dl1u.savefile.com/7fa7bbf7857698 ... /TA013.sd7 ^^

It might seem that to be a member of the "Spring community" you should have to at least play the game, whereas many of you sit here as pitiful lumps of useless code monkey goo. Not so, I say! From the most vaunted player to the lowliest forum-jockey, you're all important members of a happy Spring family. Egotism over some scrapped together high school student programming really shouldn't be enough to chain anyone down though, here or elsewhere - fly free, and enjoy life. =)

No worries on FU, btw - only needed it for an hour, and maybe someone will end up downloading TRO's stuff this way, the poor bastid. ~~

*Note to zwzsg: It's a "Zenith" saucer. People are still trying to claim that it's not a Czar clone.^.~

*Note to the moderators: Selective moderation is still a sign of poor sportsmanship - how many felonies have been committed in this thread so far? Still, I appreciate your efforts to protect those too witless to handle themselves. gg =)