Spreading Democracy?!

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 21 Sep 2007, 20:53

For those who care:

http://www.hoover.org/publications/poli ... 13481.html

Really interesting stuff, if you don`t fear the Wall of Text.

Discuss

Argh · Post by **Argh** » 21 Sep 2007, 21:23

I like this article, a lot, actually. It's a very good discussion of the issues, I think, and fair-minded about historical outcomes and realistic expectation.

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 21 Sep 2007, 21:42

I came over it because it was mentioned in a footnote in a essay for the NY:Review of Books... another Case were the Footnote is more interesting then the Essay

(It was about ... think... remember.. oh, yeah how the Republican Taxpolicy came to be - was pretty funny, cause the guy who invented in the Regan Area was pretty nuts

he is gone and forgotten but his taxpolicy (something about ab Curve) remains untouched ..)

Concering the Boix book: Some great thinkers on your side of the Ocean, i would take my hat of, if i would wear one..

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 21 Sep 2007, 22:04

i'd like the article if it werent so obvious propaganda-bullshit how democracy is the thing that magically makes the world better and must be spread across the globe for everyone's joy and benefit

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 21 Sep 2007, 22:37

it doesen`t say that it automatically turns better. It mentions India, were many poor have remained poor. But of the worst kind of Ways to have a society this is the best.
It has created a lot of cool ideas, and has given those who live with it great opportunitys, like sitting in front of a PC and writting cynical Thing against it, critisizing it, making it stronger every minute, every second you find a failure to erase.

Opportunitys other People would die for. Actually are dieing for, maybee well-hidden in some Russian, Chinese or Saudi Arabian Prison. I don├é┬┤t defend Mr. Bushs failed Attempt of spreading democracy by War, although this may be one of the few ways it could actually work under good conditions...

Argh · Post by **Argh** » 21 Sep 2007, 22:42

i'd like the article if it werent so obvious propaganda-bullshit how democracy is the thing that magically makes the world better and must be spread across the globe for everyone's joy and benefit

If that's what you got from the article, then you did not read it very closely. The main thrust of the article is an examination of the conditions where it is most likely that a democracy can function- both very sharp analysis on what creates good conditions for the success of that particular political system, and a very sobering reflection on how likely it is for the West to impose democracy on areas where economic conditions create few incentives. It wasn't trying to sell democracy-creation, on the contrary, the article offered concrete analysis of why our efforts in that regard often fail so miserably, despite the best intentions.

I liked the analysis, because it meets up well with historical fact- time and again, the West has imposed democratic regimes in various places in the Middle East, Africa, and elsewhere, then has pumped huge sums of money into them, and then has seen people who seemed like good, responsible leaders turn into the most terrible tyrants as soon as the foreign troops leave

Discussion of the reasons why leaders may feel that they should endorse terrible choices, and destroy a democracy, are very useful in expanding our understanding of why things backfire so often. It's not like we here in the USA like or are happy about the Iraqi / Afghanistani debacle, and the article is one of the few I've seen that actually moved the debate about root causes and possible routes forwards- most analysis has been either confined to a strict set of current personalities, or has been pure political hackwork of the worst sort, from both major political parties.

After nearly two centuries of trying, and massively failing, to "liberate", "emancipate" and "improve" the conditions of the Third World, at huge costs in human lives, money, and time (not to mention wars, economic dislocation, and other things), it's important that the West starts finally understanding what it's doing wrong, and why.

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 22 Sep 2007, 00:18

PicassoCT wrote:Opportunitys other People would die for. Actually are dieing for, maybee well-hidden in some Russian, Chinese or Saudi Arabian Prison. I don├é┬┤t defend Mr. Bushs failed Attempt of spreading democracy by War, although this may be one of the few ways it could actually work under good conditions...

Opportunities some people have been made to die for?

Bush is not the only one spreading democracy by war, Cold war is one of the best examples that i know where 2 powers are actively trying to push their own way of thinking down other people's throats.

If that's what you got from the article, then you did not read it very closely. The main thrust of the article is an examination of the conditions where it is most likely that a democracy can function- both very sharp analysis on what creates good conditions for the success of that particular political system, and a very sobering reflection on how likely it is for the West to impose democracy on areas where economic conditions create few incentives. It wasn't trying to sell democracy-creation, on the contrary, the article offered concrete analysis of why our efforts in that regard often fail so miserably, despite the best intentions.

So it wasnt trying to sell democracy, yet it talks about how it would best be implemented in the middle east and then proceeds to say they are basically fucked up because they dont have a democratic system?

well ill be damned, i never knew that just switching to democracy makes the world better

IMHO democracy works only in the situations it was created for, Small city-states. Small scale, not hundreds of millions.

and a very sobering reflection on how likely it is for the West to impose democracy on areas where economic conditions create few incentives. It wasn't trying to sell democracy-creation, on the contrary, the article offered concrete analysis of why our efforts in that regard often fail so miserably, despite the best intentions.

Time travel back 40 years, read this again, replace west with east and democracy with socialism

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 22 Sep 2007, 01:06

To sum it up short:

Democratic System:
Try. Error. Try. Error.

in a steady rythm of four Years

Everything Else:
Try. Error. in a steady rythm of 80 Years (One Ruller, Party, Dectator, whatsoever.)

Sorry to say it, but the statistic Chance that Democratic System is sometimes right is bigger. simply because of a lot more tryouts. And you should take a closer look at the Mess Autocrats usually leave behind. Iraq is that horrible because in the worst Moments (Guantanamo, AbuGhuraib) the USA touched the Standard-Lowlevel of the surrounding dictatorships.

Essays like the one above - like Argh already said, will help us understand & avoid failures in the near future. And Man, this is a free Country- you are even free to leave it any Moment you like, and join one of those Better working Societys you fail to mention

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 22 Sep 2007, 01:08

Sleksa, if you don't like democratic government*, what do you prefer?

*The proper term for what we're discussing would be a "democratic republic", one in which the people elect representatives to make decisions on their behalf. In a democracy, the people make all decisions directly by voting on them; thus, strictly speaking, Sleksa is correct in saying that democracy was designed for and works best in small city-states.

PicassoCT · Post by **PicassoCT** » 22 Sep 2007, 01:22

Oh, ups - you made a point Felix. Yes, i meant democratic republic, sorry if i didn├é┬┤t express myself understandable.

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 22 Sep 2007, 01:49

Sorry to say it, but the statistic Chance that Democratic System is sometimes right is bigger. simply because of a lot more tryouts. And you should take a closer look at the Mess Autocrats usually leave behind. Iraq is that horrible because in the worst Moments (Guantanamo, AbuGhuraib) the USA touched the Standard-Lowlevel of the surrounding dictatorships.

Well does failing and then trying again justify anything? Because i havent seen any sign of developement for a long time.

Essays like the one above - like Argh already said, will help us understand & avoid failures in the near future.

So you MUST fail before you can try to avoid failures?

So iraq was just a test to see if it would fail?

so was vietnam and korea?

how about slavery or us civil war

how about world wars

were they just failures, and if so, what did we learn from them?

How are we understanding and avoiding the failures we repeat every few years?

And Man, this is a free Country- you are even free to leave it any Moment you like, and join one of those Better working Societys you fail to mention Wink

I am not in a free country, i am bound by the finnish law, you are propably bound by the law too. You have been set moral and ethical guidelines you have to follow, and you still say its a free country? How is it more free than others?

No, i wont move away. I am in a better working society. The finnish system of democracy and mixed socialism works the best in my opinion, mainly because of the people that live in it.

Felix the Cat;

Democratic goverment is an ok system for small communities, cities, small countries, But not for largely populated countries. Mainly because it was created by people who lived in small communities, and created democracy for small communities. Nothing more, nothing less

And the way usa basically stuffs democracy down your throat and flushes it down with some more democracy and freedom is disguisting

DZHIBRISH · Post by **DZHIBRISH** » 22 Sep 2007, 09:27

Democracy or somethng similair to it pops out whenever the population og a country reaches a certain level of education,knowledge about the world and about facts of life and sociaty.The smarter and more political people are in a country the more chances it has to be a strong and focused democracy.When is say focused i mean one that is hard to fool with false proclamations which are meant to cover some secret aspirations and intents.Level of education also contributes to birth rates which tend to fall.Basiclly i think that a democratic country must itself make its people be as politicly involved as much as possible starting from school classes and all the wat through the university.

AF · Post by AF » 22 Sep 2007, 11:02

A democratic system is a big boost to economic prosperity as naturally people will vote in line with what benefits the majority in order to stay in their position or rise up the ranks.

If a democratic system starts to fail then the people vote for new people in charge and the system repairs itself ready for another set of iterations.

Sleksa, I agree that democracy as you see it cannot work on a large country but in reality that si not how it works at all. Parliament has no say in the local planning permissions individual cases, Parliament doesn't set out the wage for my doctor or which books my teachers bought. It can make recommendations though, and it can make generalized changes such as a nationwide increase in doctors wages of so much percent, or denouncing a distributor of school books based on research or making a type of building extension illegal for safety reasons.

This is because democracy does not come purely in the form of a central government. It is layered and different layers cater to different things.

How would you suggest that food standards are regulated in a country the size fo the US when the highest form of governments is a local elected representative? How do you think a senate or parliament would cope when confronted with thousands of individual issues usually handled by specialized local and regional authorities?

Having said all that I do believe these democracies being set up by the US are weak and beaurocratic in nature. The governments in Kabul and Baghdad are weak and their word carries no weight. As I see it they're a beaurocratic group of scholars who haven't much idea what they're doing and aren't having much of an effect upon the way Afghanistan and Iraq are being ran. Their very existence relies upon the US and british military protection provided. They wield no real authority and their voters don't vote them in based on performance but based on ethnic and social ties. They just don't get the whole point. Iraq at least should be separated into several countries until they're able to reform after settling their differences, and the taliban in Afghanistan should be given independence in southern Afghanistan and treated as a separate entity with their own border so that provocation can be better managed.

And +1 to dzhibrish

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 23 Sep 2007, 04:12

Democracy worked wonderfully for the Palestinians. They elected the wrong people and everyone put sanctions on them and forced the goverment to civil war! Hooray democracy.

It worked wonderfully for Chile, and Salvador Allende- ousted by a CIA backed coup which brought dictator Augusto Pinochet to power.

The US's best muslim friend in the middle east, Saudi Arabia, is an absolute monarchy under Sharia law.

Democracy is a wonderful thing, isnt it? Hooray for America for exporting democracy.

KingRaptor · Post by **KingRaptor** » 23 Sep 2007, 04:22

it is not ... religious animosities that explain the current violence in Iraq.

I stopped reading after that point.

My opinion? With the end of the Cold War, isolationism ftw.

Saktoth wrote:The US's best muslim friend in the middle east, Saudi Arabia, is an absolute monarchy under Sharia law.

Don't forget "friend and ally" Pakistan.

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 23 Sep 2007, 06:09

Felix the Cat wrote:Sleksa, if you don't like democratic government, what do you prefer?

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 23 Sep 2007, 06:12

Fuck politics, I'm not even going to state my mind on this.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 23 Sep 2007, 06:19

I think democracy works best in a materialistic developing world. The failure of democracy is it's inability to handle gobalization, and digitalization. The smaller a democratic model is the more smooth and efficient it's actions are. For example, if I have a group of 20 people, and we vote who should lead us, our vote will probably produce the best leader of the group, but when magnified to the mass size of a nation like America, or worse, a global sphere, how can you possibly know anything about the person you're voting for? And once your perception of your leadership is degraded to snippets and shadows and value democracy has is lost to bureaucratic inefficiency and delusion.

Ishach · Post by **Ishach** » 23 Sep 2007, 06:21

Snipawolf wrote:Fuck politics, I'm not even going to state my mind on this.

Oh cool thanks for the post : )

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 23 Sep 2007, 06:22

No problem, you're welcome >___>

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Spreading Democracy?!

Spreading Democracy?!