For the record, I'm not recommending widgets should be banned, just that a new approach is needed to dealing with them, rather then the current 'anything goes' system.
For example, I could see an advantage in a system whereby all players in a game are required to have a widget (that is, have it on their system, they can still turn it off if they don't want it). Then allow all players to download widgets off each other (or simply package widgets with Spring releases for greater security/quality control). That would increase the spread of widgets throughout the general population, as well as ensure a more level playing field.
It doesn't really address the issues with mods, though. Game design works on a number of assumptions of constants in terms of what the player is able to see, and what the player is able to achieve. While largely unpopular, if widgets were purely in the hands of modders, mods would have complete control over the way their mod was played, and design and balance accordingly. Currently, there is a significant amount of freedom on the player end, and hence a significant amount of variability. Player freedom is not always a good thing from a design perspective (I daresay it rarely is).
Under those circumstances, if players want widgets, they should lobby the mod designer to include them in their mod. It slows the dispersal of widgets, but keeps the control of the game design well in the hands of the mod maker. As the ultimate designer of their game and gameplay, it makes sense that this person should be the arbitter of what the end user is able to control, rather then leaving it purely up to players.
widget: CustomFormations v2.2 (17 Jan 08) *PLEASE UPGRADE*
Moderator: Moderators
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
*not replying to anyone in particular here*
DUde, there are too many widgets that I use just because I like them and they are useful to me to worry about whether xyz mod has them. You don't like them, hit f11 and disable them.
Like the dps counter. It is very useful to me. I use it in every game. I have it as part of my mod because visual representation is extremely useful to nearly everyone. If they don't like it f11, disable.
FFS widgets aren't even synced. If I could get a widget from funta that you could set cons to auto build on mex spots I would do it. It takes away tedium and lets people who play my mod focus on what is the most fun part of the game, and that is watching shit blow up.
Warlord, didn't you also jump on and sucessfully stifle groupAI many routines as well?
Back off, while some of you live in the last decade (that would be OTA for the slow kids), there are those of us who prefer to be able to customize our game. Widgets are unsynced anyway, so who gives a crap?
DUde, there are too many widgets that I use just because I like them and they are useful to me to worry about whether xyz mod has them. You don't like them, hit f11 and disable them.
Like the dps counter. It is very useful to me. I use it in every game. I have it as part of my mod because visual representation is extremely useful to nearly everyone. If they don't like it f11, disable.
FFS widgets aren't even synced. If I could get a widget from funta that you could set cons to auto build on mex spots I would do it. It takes away tedium and lets people who play my mod focus on what is the most fun part of the game, and that is watching shit blow up.
Warlord, didn't you also jump on and sucessfully stifle groupAI many routines as well?
Back off, while some of you live in the last decade (that would be OTA for the slow kids), there are those of us who prefer to be able to customize our game. Widgets are unsynced anyway, so who gives a crap?
Spring is about strategy. Anything that involves no conscious decisions shouldn't be gamebreaking if automated. Something like this could be done tediously by hand but that tedium is annoying. If any step there involves thought the widget won't perform optimally anyway (e.g. a widget that attempts to play the game for you would fail easily because it'dprobably not be a good AI).
Imagine someone wrote a "widget" for Starcraft that would remove the 12 unit selection limit. Sure that'd be an advantage to him but isn't it only removing an inefficiency in the game's interface rather than doing anything about the game design itself? Should an alteration like that really be able to break a game? Is your game design based on the idea that the player cannot effectively communicate his plans to the game?
Zpock: Futile. Someone could just compile his own version of Spring that ignores the tag while still looking like the official version to the server.
Imagine someone wrote a "widget" for Starcraft that would remove the 12 unit selection limit. Sure that'd be an advantage to him but isn't it only removing an inefficiency in the game's interface rather than doing anything about the game design itself? Should an alteration like that really be able to break a game? Is your game design based on the idea that the player cannot effectively communicate his plans to the game?
Zpock: Futile. Someone could just compile his own version of Spring that ignores the tag while still looking like the official version to the server.
That's exactly the point. They aren't synced and they aren't moderated at all. Here, I'll rewrite your paragraph:Forboding Angel wrote:FFS widgets aren't even synced. If I could get a widget from funta that you could set cons to auto build on mex spots I would do it. It takes away tedium and lets people who play my mod focus on what is the most fun part of the game, and that is watching shit blow up.
"If I could get an aimbot for CS that would set my cursor to automatically aim for me I would do it. It takes away tedium and lets people who play CS focus on what is the most fun part of the game, and that is killing people."
That's what a widget is. If you want to have something like that as a gadget in your mod, in other words, synced code that all players inherently have due to installing and playing the mod, then go for it. It should not be a widget.
Not even going to touch the idiocy pouring out of this one...Back off, while some of you live in the last decade (that would be OTA for the slow kids), there are those of us who prefer to be able to customize our game. Widgets are unsynced anyway, so who gives a crap?
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Machiosabre
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: 25 Dec 2005, 22:56
I agree in principle but this is the best way of distributing cool lua stuff as soon as it's made.Gnome wrote:That's exactly the point. They aren't synced and they aren't moderated at all. Here, I'll rewrite your paragraph:Forboding Angel wrote:FFS widgets aren't even synced. If I could get a widget from funta that you could set cons to auto build on mex spots I would do it. It takes away tedium and lets people who play my mod focus on what is the most fun part of the game, and that is watching shit blow up.
"If I could get an aimbot for CS that would set my cursor to automatically aim for me I would do it. It takes away tedium and lets people who play CS focus on what is the most fun part of the game, and that is killing people."
That's what a widget is. If you want to have something like that as a gadget in your mod, in other words, synced code that all players inherently have due to installing and playing the mod, then go for it. It should not be a widget.
Not even going to touch the idiocy pouring out of this one...Back off, while some of you live in the last decade (that would be OTA for the slow kids), there are those of us who prefer to be able to customize our game. Widgets are unsynced anyway, so who gives a crap?
Fortunately, some modders specialize in designing cool widgets like this to put into mods directly (as per jK and quant and sometimes others in CA), and some specialize in stealing them (like me =).
It should be noted that while the potential for widget abuse exists, thereby granting some players an "unfair" advantage if they have the time or fortune to find out about them, none of the widgets publicly posted are game deciders. If a person's going to lose, then it's generally very obvious that no amount of intervention can save them. If you're solely concerned about competitive 1v1 play, then first you suck because FlashSpam requires the intellectual power of a Counter Strike player, and second, if you're competitive, then you'll know how to use every widget out there.
It should be noted that while the potential for widget abuse exists, thereby granting some players an "unfair" advantage if they have the time or fortune to find out about them, none of the widgets publicly posted are game deciders. If a person's going to lose, then it's generally very obvious that no amount of intervention can save them. If you're solely concerned about competitive 1v1 play, then first you suck because FlashSpam requires the intellectual power of a Counter Strike player, and second, if you're competitive, then you'll know how to use every widget out there.
Thing is, Counterstrike is ~90% about the speed and quality of your aim. Spring is not 90% about the speed and quality of your ability to perform mindless tasks. Widgets will only perform mindless functions, they cannot replace the vital tasks of a player: Having and performing a better strategy. The things widgets do for you are things a good (or even decent) player will have no trouble executing perfectly every time without thinking about it, all the widget does is reduce his workload by taking the menial tasks and automating them, leaving the player free to deal with the interesting parts of the game, strategy and tactics.Gnome wrote:That's exactly the point. They aren't synced and they aren't moderated at all. Here, I'll rewrite your paragraph:
"If I could get an aimbot for CS that would set my cursor to automatically aim for me I would do it. It takes away tedium and lets people who play CS focus on what is the most fun part of the game, and that is killing people."
That's what a widget is. If you want to have something like that as a gadget in your mod, in other words, synced code that all players inherently have due to installing and playing the mod, then go for it. It should not be a widget.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
KDR said exactly what I was gonna say. 90% of the game in an fps is aiming. An rts is much more complicated.Gnome wrote:That's exactly the point. They aren't synced and they aren't moderated at all. Here, I'll rewrite your paragraph:Forboding Angel wrote:FFS widgets aren't even synced. If I could get a widget from funta that you could set cons to auto build on mex spots I would do it. It takes away tedium and lets people who play my mod focus on what is the most fun part of the game, and that is watching shit blow up.
"If I could get an aimbot for CS that would set my cursor to automatically aim for me I would do it. It takes away tedium and lets people who play CS focus on what is the most fun part of the game, and that is killing people."
That's what a widget is. If you want to have something like that as a gadget in your mod, in other words, synced code that all players inherently have due to installing and playing the mod, then go for it. It should not be a widget.
Not even going to touch the idiocy pouring out of this one...Back off, while some of you live in the last decade (that would be OTA for the slow kids), there are those of us who prefer to be able to customize our game. Widgets are unsynced anyway, so who gives a crap?
One thing that hasn't been touched on is the fact that most "Crappy" players in RTS' are the ones that have trouble managing building econ and macro strategy(controlling unit groups) at the same time. Personally all I want my players (Few as they may be) in funta to be concentrating on is killing shit. I want 95% of their thought process dedicated to thinking about how to crush their enemy. I want them concentrating on the battle, not throwing units mindlessly at the opponent so they can scroll back and manage econ, then scroll over to find out the outcome.
Warlord, you sound like a frightened 13 year old girl. If a problem arises we will deal with it. We need as much lua development as possible, I refuse to take part in squelching that just because you're scared.
Ok first off this is a pretty cool widget, props to jK for that. Don't think I've ever played an RTS where you can give such controlled formation move orders like that, its actually a pretty cool feature.
I do have some gripes though. First off, I am pretty damn confident in saying that this widget will give a huge improvement micro control for more or less anyone that uses it. Even the best micro players would benefit from the added control this widget gives over line formation orders.
This widget makes it extremely easy to surround anything you are attacking with great accuracy regardless of what units you are using. Rockos for example just require a bigger circle to be dragged around the target than for flash or peewees to compensate for their range and surround from distance.
This widget is perhaps the first to truly start discussion and controversy over the benefits lua widgets can give so far as playing the actual game goes and whether or not the LUA scripts people are allowed to use in games is moderated.
I would say that this widget DOES have an impact on the gameplay of the mods, essentially because it makes accurate micro so much easier that the users own way of playing the game is likely to change. Micro orders can be given so promptly and accurately with little effort that even the best microers in our community would find it hard to be quicker and more accurate in their micro of, lets say, 20 rockos to kill a comm than an average player using this widget. The widget can be used scarily effectively from basically anyone that can coordinate the cursor movement of mouse reasonably accurately (which I would assume is pretty much everyone). There is basically 0 time involved in getting used to using this widget to micro, its so simple and easy.
Firstly this will mean there is more time for other things (macro) which inherently changes how the user will play the game because he/she will have more time to spend on things there wouldn't have time for before, without sacrificing in the micro area.
Secondly, it is in fact so easy to use and so clearly effective for controlling units that it is likely to bridge some gaps between players in terms of their ability to micro effectively. Of course, this won't apply to micro across the board in the sense that micro of single units such as jeffies or peewees will still be there and the players with better overall experience/skill will still micro these units better than the rest. There will still be constraints on players who don't even KNOW how to micro units effectively, as well as those who just ignore micro as somewhat of a bad habit, and of course those players who just don't even notice that they should be microing e.g. units dieing, being under attack or reaching the end of their given orders without the player noticing.
Still, this does not prevent it being the case that anyone who uses this widget to micro will probably have better and less time consuming micro than before almost instantaneously. Thus, the discussion over the impact LUA widgets can have on how well a user can PLAY THE GAME is totally valid here.
I argue that this widget undoubtedly gives a benefit to any LUA using player that has this widget and has practiced using it for anything over 30 seconds. This is obviously something that could spark controversy and hopefully there will be a lot more discussion (and perhaps action taken) with regard to "LUA moderation" in games. Many players still don't use LUA, including myself actually, and amongst the people who do use LUA, most are likely to have a different "setup" and use different combinations of scripts and many are likely not to find out about this widget or simply find out later than others.
To me, this is the sort of groundbreaking widget that should either be part of the spring source code or should be accompanied by the option to moderate it in games, particularly ladder games. PRO_rANDY is regarded as one of the best 1v1 players in BA, if not the best, by many. He doesn't use LUA either. If i was to use this widget in 1v1's against rANDY and he did not, would my win/loss ratio against him improve? Honestly, I think it would.
And another controversial issue is that I have NO DOUBT that certain players on the ladder will be using this widget now to assist micro. I see det has already posted that he thinks this widget is awesome in this thread for example. Will this improve some of these players micro on a pretty substantial level? I think so. Will I be FORCED to use LUA to stay just as competitive as before? I think yes.
Basically, I think this widget is pretty awesome too, but I think it has huge implications for the use of LUA, its impact on playing including giving a competitive advantage to those using LUA scripts, and the total lack of moderation there is for it right now. I think its scarily accurate, effective, easy and quick to use. I think it makes micro several factors easier and importantly will make players with average micro better in comparison to players with better micro. I think it will be used in ladder play until it is discussed - and perhaps even then still. I think some of us will be forced to start using LUA to stay competitive and I think that trend will continue in the future if widgets like this one are released and Spring continues to have no moderation on their use. I think the option for moderation is needed AND I think it should remain that the option to NOT use LUA should be there unless LUA is made to be always on in Spring. LUA raises the load on system and causes slower PC's to...well...run even slower in Spring so this is another area for discussion.
My 2 cents :/
I do have some gripes though. First off, I am pretty damn confident in saying that this widget will give a huge improvement micro control for more or less anyone that uses it. Even the best micro players would benefit from the added control this widget gives over line formation orders.
This widget makes it extremely easy to surround anything you are attacking with great accuracy regardless of what units you are using. Rockos for example just require a bigger circle to be dragged around the target than for flash or peewees to compensate for their range and surround from distance.
This widget is perhaps the first to truly start discussion and controversy over the benefits lua widgets can give so far as playing the actual game goes and whether or not the LUA scripts people are allowed to use in games is moderated.
I would say that this widget DOES have an impact on the gameplay of the mods, essentially because it makes accurate micro so much easier that the users own way of playing the game is likely to change. Micro orders can be given so promptly and accurately with little effort that even the best microers in our community would find it hard to be quicker and more accurate in their micro of, lets say, 20 rockos to kill a comm than an average player using this widget. The widget can be used scarily effectively from basically anyone that can coordinate the cursor movement of mouse reasonably accurately (which I would assume is pretty much everyone). There is basically 0 time involved in getting used to using this widget to micro, its so simple and easy.
Firstly this will mean there is more time for other things (macro) which inherently changes how the user will play the game because he/she will have more time to spend on things there wouldn't have time for before, without sacrificing in the micro area.
Secondly, it is in fact so easy to use and so clearly effective for controlling units that it is likely to bridge some gaps between players in terms of their ability to micro effectively. Of course, this won't apply to micro across the board in the sense that micro of single units such as jeffies or peewees will still be there and the players with better overall experience/skill will still micro these units better than the rest. There will still be constraints on players who don't even KNOW how to micro units effectively, as well as those who just ignore micro as somewhat of a bad habit, and of course those players who just don't even notice that they should be microing e.g. units dieing, being under attack or reaching the end of their given orders without the player noticing.
Still, this does not prevent it being the case that anyone who uses this widget to micro will probably have better and less time consuming micro than before almost instantaneously. Thus, the discussion over the impact LUA widgets can have on how well a user can PLAY THE GAME is totally valid here.
I argue that this widget undoubtedly gives a benefit to any LUA using player that has this widget and has practiced using it for anything over 30 seconds. This is obviously something that could spark controversy and hopefully there will be a lot more discussion (and perhaps action taken) with regard to "LUA moderation" in games. Many players still don't use LUA, including myself actually, and amongst the people who do use LUA, most are likely to have a different "setup" and use different combinations of scripts and many are likely not to find out about this widget or simply find out later than others.
To me, this is the sort of groundbreaking widget that should either be part of the spring source code or should be accompanied by the option to moderate it in games, particularly ladder games. PRO_rANDY is regarded as one of the best 1v1 players in BA, if not the best, by many. He doesn't use LUA either. If i was to use this widget in 1v1's against rANDY and he did not, would my win/loss ratio against him improve? Honestly, I think it would.
And another controversial issue is that I have NO DOUBT that certain players on the ladder will be using this widget now to assist micro. I see det has already posted that he thinks this widget is awesome in this thread for example. Will this improve some of these players micro on a pretty substantial level? I think so. Will I be FORCED to use LUA to stay just as competitive as before? I think yes.
Basically, I think this widget is pretty awesome too, but I think it has huge implications for the use of LUA, its impact on playing including giving a competitive advantage to those using LUA scripts, and the total lack of moderation there is for it right now. I think its scarily accurate, effective, easy and quick to use. I think it makes micro several factors easier and importantly will make players with average micro better in comparison to players with better micro. I think it will be used in ladder play until it is discussed - and perhaps even then still. I think some of us will be forced to start using LUA to stay competitive and I think that trend will continue in the future if widgets like this one are released and Spring continues to have no moderation on their use. I think the option for moderation is needed AND I think it should remain that the option to NOT use LUA should be there unless LUA is made to be always on in Spring. LUA raises the load on system and causes slower PC's to...well...run even slower in Spring so this is another area for discussion.
My 2 cents :/
Not that too many folks play my mod yet, but my way of dealing with this will be to include this script within the mod as soon as the bugs are worked out of it. Looking through the list of widgets on UF periodically seems a given for improving gameplay, and it's easier for one modder to do this than a thousand players. It seems odd, given the absence of controls on widgets (and GUIs), that people handling the more popular mods don't feel the same way.
That being said, people whose pcs can't handle lua or those who disable it intentionally will just have to deal with the disadvantages unless/until they can upgrade their pcs.
Since some of you are concerned about the potential of widgets to be game breaking, why doesn't someone make a link to a Feature Request thread requesting lua control, restrictions or limitations? Complaining about something that's currently impossible to regulate won't get you anywhere.
That being said, people whose pcs can't handle lua or those who disable it intentionally will just have to deal with the disadvantages unless/until they can upgrade their pcs.
Since some of you are concerned about the potential of widgets to be game breaking, why doesn't someone make a link to a Feature Request thread requesting lua control, restrictions or limitations? Complaining about something that's currently impossible to regulate won't get you anywhere.
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
You're not going to tempt me with that petty nonesense, Forboding. I've never had anything against you in the past, never engaged in many of the flamefests that often surround you here, and I have no intention of doing so, despite being blatantly lured. I've also never been involved in 'quashing' any groupAI routines.
I'm expressing my opinion, and I stand by it. Widget automation should be in the hands of modders, not users. Users, as a rule, are insidious, unpredictable and will do anything to win. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. I do not think it is good gamedesign to place that sort of control in the hands of the user - particularly when that advantage is potentially limitless control that cannot be detected or controlled in any way. If you want a certain widget, lobby your modder to include it. If the modder doesn't include it, listen to his reasoning - it could be sound. Or just don't play the mod.
Also, while I theoretically agree with what KDR says about widget automation never being able to recreate what a human does in terms of strategic decision making; I think that that is only ever on a purely theoretical level, and not the reality in question. For practical purposes, much of the skill in an RTS derives through player control - mixing macro and micro. Many of the most popular RTS's are a derivation of these combinations - and invariably, the best players will always find something 'micro' to do quicker then the average players. The problem is that this stratification of the playing field becomes significantly more severe, because victory is no longer a purely skill based determinant. You are adding variables into the field that are no longer simply 'player x outplayed player y'. Variables that are only beginning to reveal the extent to which they can impact the game - and variables which are undetectable, and do not have to be player standard.
Don't get me wrong here, I once more reiterate that I think this is a great piece of UI control, and give full credit to jK for coding it. I also do not think such things should simply not be produced for Spring. I think they should. If I had to make the decision as to whether to include this in my mod, I would include it.
What I want is the ability to ensure that that decision remains in my hands - to ensure that the field that people playing my mod is always even, so that the skill base is always determined by individual skill on a constant playing ground, rather then variable skill on a variable playing ground.
This also ensures the consistency of the product which I am producing; I am able to predict the means by which my users will be able to engage with my product. Say I was balancing for a side which had a very powerful flamethrower unit that was perhaps overpowered for it's cost-DPS; but was balanced by the fact that it could not be used in large groups, because the units would refuse to fire through each other (FF on), meaning that while they are potentially a more powerful unit, they require a little more micro in order to really exploit their strengths. Here I have created room for a bit of finesse in terms of upper tiers of play; a strong player using this unit will be able to spread out and surround enemies with these units in order to increase their damage potential. Here the playfield is constant, and player skill is able to stratify player levels through varying levels of control.
Along comes this new widget. Well, fine, I say. If I have the control available to me, I can decide to not put this widget in, as it upsets my balance. Or, I can decide to put the widget in, and rebalance accordingly. Either way I have full control, and full predictability of the way my game will be interfaced with, and thus full ability to manage the way my game responds and plays out.
However, in the current situation, I have no control over whether this widget is used or not, and no knowledge of whether it is used or not. I have no way to ensure that there is a level playing field, and the variability therein would result in players with the widget gaining a significant advantage over players without the widget. I am therefore forced into balancing my game in the assumption that all players have the widget - which is a sorry state of affairs to begin with, as I am the modder and should have full control over how my game plays out. But further then that, it means that anyone who doesn't have the widget is now playing a game balanced for widget-using people, which no longer suits their situation or level of control. The playing field is completely variable.
And forboding, seriously dude, I'm the one sounding like a scared 13 year old? You think I'm going to back down on my argument because you're calling me 'chicken'? I'm stating gameplay-based reasons why these things should remain in modders hands, not pounding my chest like a fucking monkey. Grow up.
I'm expressing my opinion, and I stand by it. Widget automation should be in the hands of modders, not users. Users, as a rule, are insidious, unpredictable and will do anything to win. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. I do not think it is good gamedesign to place that sort of control in the hands of the user - particularly when that advantage is potentially limitless control that cannot be detected or controlled in any way. If you want a certain widget, lobby your modder to include it. If the modder doesn't include it, listen to his reasoning - it could be sound. Or just don't play the mod.
Also, while I theoretically agree with what KDR says about widget automation never being able to recreate what a human does in terms of strategic decision making; I think that that is only ever on a purely theoretical level, and not the reality in question. For practical purposes, much of the skill in an RTS derives through player control - mixing macro and micro. Many of the most popular RTS's are a derivation of these combinations - and invariably, the best players will always find something 'micro' to do quicker then the average players. The problem is that this stratification of the playing field becomes significantly more severe, because victory is no longer a purely skill based determinant. You are adding variables into the field that are no longer simply 'player x outplayed player y'. Variables that are only beginning to reveal the extent to which they can impact the game - and variables which are undetectable, and do not have to be player standard.
Don't get me wrong here, I once more reiterate that I think this is a great piece of UI control, and give full credit to jK for coding it. I also do not think such things should simply not be produced for Spring. I think they should. If I had to make the decision as to whether to include this in my mod, I would include it.
What I want is the ability to ensure that that decision remains in my hands - to ensure that the field that people playing my mod is always even, so that the skill base is always determined by individual skill on a constant playing ground, rather then variable skill on a variable playing ground.
This also ensures the consistency of the product which I am producing; I am able to predict the means by which my users will be able to engage with my product. Say I was balancing for a side which had a very powerful flamethrower unit that was perhaps overpowered for it's cost-DPS; but was balanced by the fact that it could not be used in large groups, because the units would refuse to fire through each other (FF on), meaning that while they are potentially a more powerful unit, they require a little more micro in order to really exploit their strengths. Here I have created room for a bit of finesse in terms of upper tiers of play; a strong player using this unit will be able to spread out and surround enemies with these units in order to increase their damage potential. Here the playfield is constant, and player skill is able to stratify player levels through varying levels of control.
Along comes this new widget. Well, fine, I say. If I have the control available to me, I can decide to not put this widget in, as it upsets my balance. Or, I can decide to put the widget in, and rebalance accordingly. Either way I have full control, and full predictability of the way my game will be interfaced with, and thus full ability to manage the way my game responds and plays out.
However, in the current situation, I have no control over whether this widget is used or not, and no knowledge of whether it is used or not. I have no way to ensure that there is a level playing field, and the variability therein would result in players with the widget gaining a significant advantage over players without the widget. I am therefore forced into balancing my game in the assumption that all players have the widget - which is a sorry state of affairs to begin with, as I am the modder and should have full control over how my game plays out. But further then that, it means that anyone who doesn't have the widget is now playing a game balanced for widget-using people, which no longer suits their situation or level of control. The playing field is completely variable.
And forboding, seriously dude, I'm the one sounding like a scared 13 year old? You think I'm going to back down on my argument because you're calling me 'chicken'? I'm stating gameplay-based reasons why these things should remain in modders hands, not pounding my chest like a fucking monkey. Grow up.
Limiting Lua scripts is silly because they're meant as a replacement for engine features to reduce the workload of the devs. If Lua was introduced earlier you'd need Lua scripts for stuff like line move, area attack and possibly even dragging lines, boxes, etc of buildings and the repeat button.
Think of the alternative: The player could pause, manually give move orders to every unit in his group and unpause. Technically completely feasible but it would be annoying as fuck for everyone involved. So instead of constant pausing, ordering, unpausing you get widgets that can do the stuff you'd do in the pause instantly.
Spring isn't meant to be played without Lua anymore. Lua is becoming a replacement for engine features and as such development on engine features that can be done via Lua easily and cleanly will be ceased. Playing without Lua means you're playing with an outdated version.
Think of the alternative: The player could pause, manually give move orders to every unit in his group and unpause. Technically completely feasible but it would be annoying as fuck for everyone involved. So instead of constant pausing, ordering, unpausing you get widgets that can do the stuff you'd do in the pause instantly.
Spring isn't meant to be played without Lua anymore. Lua is becoming a replacement for engine features and as such development on engine features that can be done via Lua easily and cleanly will be ceased. Playing without Lua means you're playing with an outdated version.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Ok from now on, KDR is arguing for me as I'm 100% on with everything he says in this discussion so far.
Tired, I am the same way. Any lua widget/gadget that I can get/steal that is potentially useful to my (quite small) user base gets immediately included. I am one that likes convenience and hates tedium.
I don't have to use tedium to make my mod interesting. 5 minutes in my mod is plenty to to grab someone's attention.
@warlord, I'm not luring you. I as well as you am stating my opinion. And I would almost swear that you were involved in a huge flamefest that broke out here some time about concerning groupAI's. You have a right to your own opinion, and I have a right to mine. I'm not trying to silence you. I'm trying to explain to you the reprecussions of what you suggest, however, KDR is doing a much better job than me in much fewer wordage.
Tired, I am the same way. Any lua widget/gadget that I can get/steal that is potentially useful to my (quite small) user base gets immediately included. I am one that likes convenience and hates tedium.
I don't have to use tedium to make my mod interesting. 5 minutes in my mod is plenty to to grab someone's attention.
@warlord, I'm not luring you. I as well as you am stating my opinion. And I would almost swear that you were involved in a huge flamefest that broke out here some time about concerning groupAI's. You have a right to your own opinion, and I have a right to mine. I'm not trying to silence you. I'm trying to explain to you the reprecussions of what you suggest, however, KDR is doing a much better job than me in much fewer wordage.
Seems there are 2 clear sides to this.
Warlord makes a great point about player control and skill as related to balance in an RTS. Generally speaking, the more complex micro required to use a unit to its full effectiveness, the more benefit you get from the execution of this micro because other players cant/dont. Execution in any RTS with a reasonably complex control scheme plays a big part in the resultant balance or imbalance of units, and often it tends to be the case that the units which are rebalanced are predominantly those which have an effectiveness directly related to the execution of micro by the player.
I agree with more or less everything Warlord has said, although I don't think LUA widgets used in mods should be 100% under the modders control, I do think a considerable amount of control should be given to modders concerning all widgets that debatably change the UI in a way that benefits the users ability to win.Warlord Zsinj wrote:Lots of truth
Warlord makes a great point about player control and skill as related to balance in an RTS. Generally speaking, the more complex micro required to use a unit to its full effectiveness, the more benefit you get from the execution of this micro because other players cant/dont. Execution in any RTS with a reasonably complex control scheme plays a big part in the resultant balance or imbalance of units, and often it tends to be the case that the units which are rebalanced are predominantly those which have an effectiveness directly related to the execution of micro by the player.
Last edited by DemO on 13 Sep 2007, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Forboding Angel
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