Kernel Panic - Page 30

Kernel Panic

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Peet
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Post by Peet »

Boirunner wrote:I'd update the first post, but I can't help but think that this
...
has almost nothing to do with the KP that I envisioned design and that KDR_11k made, so I'm not very motivated to spend time working on it.
Horses, goatse labs, heart-rays, bugs, dune-worms, pointless graphical effects with no connection to gameplay? I liked KP when it was pure, graphically simplistic RTS goodness. Now it's just a random mod with some strange looking units and maps. :(
1) Those beams aren't irrelevant to gameplay, they connect the kernel to sockets and sustain the shield around the kernel.

2) Then don't play Corruption or ONS, zwzsg still included 'vanilla' KP.
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zwzsg
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Post by zwzsg »

Boirunner: Well, eviless mode is still included, with no goatse labs, no heart-rays, no bugs, no dune-worms, less graphical effects. I would understand if you only host & play eviless mode. Eviless was made for that, for the purists, who feel the second side denature the beauty of KP. For you! Play it!

But all the graphical effect I added was because they were missing from the gameplay:
- Grey smoke looked out of place, it was like the only piece of TA left, so I made green number smoke.
- The pointer shot was very hard to see, while it was a very powerful weapon, so it needed something to make it more visible, hence the pointer shot trail.
- When a trojan was building a window, it was hard to see it was busy building, the tiny pulsating nose was too small, and even if you could see it, it was hard to see which window it was building. After many games where I mis-ordered my trojan because the display didn't provided the right information, I felt it needed something connecting the trojan that is building and the window under construction.
- There was some talk about how it was too easy to rush the kernel and prevent it from ever completing anything, as a very lowly force was enough to keep destructing units under construction before anyone comes out, so I had the idea to give kernel a shield. And to make the shield go down only once there is no more socket, that way you can't just win by holding the enemy kernel with a couple bits, you have to hunt every socket before, and meanwhile kernel is free to keep on building, but once a team is reduced to their kernel, they're easy to beat.
- Then, since the socket were now magically giving the kernel a shield, I need to show a connection of them, to materialise the transfer of energy or whatever, so player would understand more easily what made the kernel shielded then unshielded, and also so that, if the enemy has one last socket hidden in a secret corner of the map, you don't waste time scouting everywhere while you have practilly won, but instead just follow the rainbow.
- The new bit weapon is because, since beamlaser were removed, I had a hard time seeing which bits were shooting and at what, so I made this clear, arrowed, shot, so I wouldn't wonder anymore who's firing at who.
- Etc...

But me too am kinda bothered about how the hacker's unit don't look as KPish as the system's, and maybe, at some point, if I ever had time, I would have retextured them. Though KDR_11k will say "But there are flat shaded units in Tron", I think some texxing style like what Runecrafter posted would be more suitable. Or I saw that highlight LUA widget, if I could understand it and apply the same kind of effect to units, that could look neat.

YokoZar: Source code of what? The mod itself, well, I don't think model and texture need source, and the BOS (source code of COB) are included. For the map, I only have the source image of the D.M.A. map(s), I asked Runecrafter the source image of his map, and marble madness would be easy to remake. But I don't think you are talking about the source images of maps anyway. For the widgets, well, LUA being interpreted, the .lua are the source code! For NTai, you'll have to see with AF. Top thread in AI forum is entitled "NTai for Linux". For the rest of Spring, well, it's just Spring75b2, so take Spring75b2 source. For the installer, I included the .nsi file in the file the installer copies.
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Tim Blokdijk
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Post by Tim Blokdijk »

zwzsg wrote:...

YokoZar: Source code of what? The mod itself, well, I don't think model and texture need source ...
Why not?
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zwzsg
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Post by zwzsg »

Because unlike compiled code, an image or a model can be easily modified. If you have an exe, you can uncompile it, but the resulting assembler code will be like useless compared to the actual C source. If you have a s3o and you export to Rhino3D/Wings3D/3DSMax/Maya/Whatever KDR used file, you get something as good and useable as the original, if not even better.

As for the texture, well, maybe if it was a very carefully made texture like for 1944, a recording of all actions made, or a save at each state, could be considered a source, but for KP, wtf, it's just outlines and flat colors.

No really, do you have any exemple of game that have released "source code" of texture and models? Because I'm not even sure the concept makes any sense.
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Argh
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Post by Argh »

Whether it can be "easily modified" is not relevant.

All of the models in NanoBlobs were released under the GPL. You can apply the GPL to binaries, if you want to. In retrospect, I should have put them under CC, but ah well. Either way they're available for other people to use, should they be willing to adhere to the License.
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Post by Tobi »

Yokozar: you do not want to generate the mod from sourcecode (if that's what you up to).

The resulting .sd7/.sdz would contain different timestamps so the checksum on it would be different and people would not get sync in the lobby vs players of the official release.

Of course this does not matter if you just want to include the source code for legal reasons, but not generate the .sd7/.sdz from it.

Argh: you can still relicense them unless someone already contributed new stuff under the GPL terms.
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Argh
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Post by Argh »

I know. I will almost certainly CC the whole thing soon, I'm just too busy executing right this second to go grab the mod, do the two minor fixes to gameplay that would be required, and release it.

Which probably sounds lame, but I'm kind've in the middle of getting my Rocket-Propelled Land Factory painted at the moment, and I don't want to stop my workflow for that until the !#*@@* thing is scripted and I know it's done.
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Tim Blokdijk
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Post by Tim Blokdijk »

zwzsg wrote:Because unlike compiled code, an image or a model can be easily modified. If you have an exe, you can uncompile it, but the resulting assembler code will be like useless compared to the actual C source. If you have a s3o and you export to Rhino3D/Wings3D/3DSMax/Maya/Whatever KDR used file, you get something as good and useable as the original, if not even better.

As for the texture, well, maybe if it was a very carefully made texture like for 1944, a recording of all actions made, or a save at each state, could be considered a source, but for KP, wtf, it's just outlines and flat colors.

No really, do you have any exemple of game that have released "source code" of texture and models? Because I'm not even sure the concept makes any sense.
I agree that "source" for compiled code, 3D models and graphics are only comparable in a very broad sense, still I do think that it's good to have the source in all cases. Working directly with a s3o models and dds textures may be practical if you like to import it back into Spring but if somebody likes to render a close up animation in Blender "real" source would help. Do you exclusively use the files inside the mod archive to develop KP?

An example would be Smoths "Islands in war" map, it has its source released. (ok it's a map and Smoth did not post a link publicly)
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zwzsg
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Post by zwzsg »

YokoZar wrote:I would like source code so I can make a working Linux package.
I see YokoZar asking source code, not license.

The licensing is separate problem. KDR_11k, who produced about all models and textures of Kernel Panic, said they are Creative Commons, though I probably should include some declaration somewhere in the mod file that they are. And personnaly I'd be a bit annoyed if kp units started popping in unrelated mod.. :P

By the way, if I include Spring in Kernel Panic installer, do I have to show some special declaration about GPL or whatever? Currently, it installs Spring with all its /docs/, but I feel it should credits Spring more considering I intend to avertise KP outside of Spring community.

I still have no idea what YokoZar meant by source code. Would be very cool if Kernel Panic could get bundled with a Linux distributation so I'd like to help, but:
- I still don't get what YokoZar wants.
- I don't have Linux so I'm not very knownledgeable about it.
- None of the AI that work under Linux work with KP. The only AI that work with KP doesn't work very well (it stutters and so would give users a bad first impression), and its porting to Linux has just started.
- I haven't followed very closely, but, can Windows and Linux play Spring together now, and is there useable Linux lobbies, now?


Oh, and Tim, the texture are tga, which I believe is a broad enough format that no one would have any problem opening in an editor, many times already I have taken a texture in use and edited it with gimp and Paint Shop Pro. I also left over a few discarded and wip textures in \mods\Kernel_Panic_1.5_Corruption.sd7\bitmaps\trashbin\
Do you exclusively use the files inside the mod archive to develop KP?
Yes.

If KDR_1kk gives me more source files, I'll include them in next version of KP, but really, anybody meddling with Spring models should have UpSpring anyway, and it's easier to open the in-use model and export with UpSpring in whatever you favorite format is, than to deal with a .wings or a .3dm or whatever format you probably won't have the right modeller to open and will never sure it's really the lastest version of the model.

Ok, actually, I can't release source because I don't have them, and I don't have them because Kernel Panic is the work of KDR_11k, not me.
Of course this does not matter if you just want to include the source code for legal reasons, but not generate the .sd7/.sdz from it.
So, we'd have exactly the same contents, once in a .sd7, another time in a -source.tar.bz2 o_O ? Sound a bit idiotic to me, can't we consider sd7 to be just like any other archive format and so the file read by Spring be its own source?
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Pxtl
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Post by Pxtl »

On Spring's license, I don't know how the Spring devs feel, but I do know that GPL projects do not have to be explicitly advertised as GPL. You don't have to have a GPL click-through license screen. You can silently include a GPL project within your package, as long as anything that links to that GPL project is also GPL (and since the mod package does not link to Spring, but is instead executed by spring, that's okay).

But either way, there may be seperate issues of politeness.

of course, this is all AFAIK, IANAL, IDDQD.
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Post by imbaczek »

IMHO it will suffice if zwszg will put .bos source in the package. Images can be said to be their own sources. Then there's only the question of license left. IMHO GPLed BOS would be best - no debian legal nazi will have issues with that; if in doubt, you can specifically state that every BOS file links only with its #included headers.
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zwzsg
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Post by zwzsg »

.bos source are already and have always been there.
#moddev wrote:<zwzsg> Did you kept so called 'source file'?
<KDR_11k> There's a .blend but it's just as binary as s3o :P
<KDR_11k> Since it doesn't pass through an automatic compiler it's much different from the s3o

<KDR_11k> I can see what I can do

<KDR_11k> Did he demand "source" files for the textures, too?
<zwzsg> I don't know what YokoZar asked, but Tim asked "source" for textures, yes
<KDR_11k> I'm not shipping my severed hand to them
<KDR_11k> I think I'll ask for the "source" for otacontent.sdz :P

<KDR_11k> I'll just rar my KP work folder up
<KDR_11k> http://spring.unknown-files.net/file/34 ... t_Cookies/

<KDR_11k> There's probably no need for the reference pictures I used, right?
<KDR_11k> Maybe it needs a text file "reference pictures used are available at http://www.goatse.cz"
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Tim Blokdijk
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Post by Tim Blokdijk »

zwzsg wrote:The licensing is separate problem. KDR_11k, who produced about all models and textures of Kernel Panic, said they are Creative Commons, though I probably should include some declaration somewhere in the mod file that they are. And personnaly I'd be a bit annoyed if kp units started popping in unrelated mod.. :P
The license for each file needs to be clear before anything can be included with a Linux distribution. Also note that Creative Commons is not a license in itself, several licenses are availeble under Creative Commons.

I think we need some "gentleman agreement" about not using units from other peoples mods without discussing it first.
zwzsg wrote: By the way, if I include Spring in Kernel Panic installer, do I have to show some special declaration about GPL or whatever? Currently, it installs Spring with all its /docs/, but I feel it should credits Spring more considering I intend to avertise KP outside of Spring community.
I would credit the Spring project (to some degree), but the GPL is written so that you do not actually have to agree to it.
zwzsg wrote: I still have no idea what YokoZar meant by source code. Would be very cool if Kernel Panic could get bundled with a Linux distributation so I'd like to help, but:
- I still don't get what YokoZar wants.
- I don't have Linux so I'm not very knownledgeable about it.
- None of the AI that work under Linux work with KP. The only AI that work with KP doesn't work very well (it stutters and so would give users a bad first impression), and its porting to Linux has just started.
- I haven't followed very closely, but, can Windows and Linux play Spring together now, and is there useable Linux lobbies, now?
- YokoZar needs to build a source package to satisfy the legal requirements.
- Don't worry about you lacking knowledge about Linux enough people can help with that.
- AI will be a problem then..
- More or less, almost :-)
zwzsg wrote: Oh, and Tim, the texture are tga, which I believe is a broad enough format that no one would have any problem opening in an editor, many times already I have taken a texture in use and edited it with gimp and Paint Shop Pro. I also left over a few discarded and wip textures in \mods\Kernel_Panic_1.5_Corruption.sd7\bitmaps\trashbin\
Tga should be ok, I think.
zwzsg wrote:
Do you exclusively use the files inside the mod archive to develop KP?
Yes.
Ok, I didn't expect that.
zwzsg wrote: If KDR_1kk gives me more source files, I'll include them in next version of KP, but really, anybody meddling with Spring models should have UpSpring anyway, and it's easier to open the in-use model and export with UpSpring in whatever you favorite format is, than to deal with a .wings or a .3dm or whatever format you probably won't have the right modeller to open and will never sure it's really the lastest version of the model.
Maybe the s3o can be seen as source.. Still I would include blend/wings files when possible.

Without a good ai it will be hard to make the deadline for the next Ubuntu release, but I guess it's possible to get it into Debian sid and update that until Ubuntu 8.04.
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Tim Blokdijk
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Post by Tim Blokdijk »

I downloaded the source KDR uploaded to UF, I sorted it out and cleaned it up a bit and added the bos files from the KP installer.
You can download it here http://timblokdijk.nl/spring/Kernel%20P ... .5.tar.bz2
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Post by Tobi »

zwzsg wrote: - None of the AI that work under Linux work with KP. The only AI that work with KP doesn't work very well (it stutters and so would give users a bad first impression), and its porting to Linux has just started.
Actually it has already been ported earlier already, and it already compiles and links fine. It's just a matter of figuring out where to put the datafiles or something.
zwzsg wrote:
Of course this does not matter if you just want to include the source code for legal reasons, but not generate the .sd7/.sdz from it.
So, we'd have exactly the same contents, once in a .sd7, another time in a -source.tar.bz2 o_O ? Sound a bit idiotic to me, can't we consider sd7 to be just like any other archive format and so the file read by Spring be its own source?
[/quote]Basically yes: the source package would contain just the .sd7 and the build system would make a binary package of it with, well, just the .sd7 :-) . It's a (minor) inefficiency in the package system, it assumes binary is always different as source.
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zwzsg
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Post by zwzsg »

Changed a bit the installer, but you don't need to redownload if you already have KP 1.5: the sd7 of the mod are the same.

- Mod is the same, only installer changed:
- Now unselect "Spring engine" if already present and up to date
- Speed_Balls_16_Way.sdz added to maps
- Kernel_Panic_graphics_source.rar added
- DPS widget doesn't show 0 damage anymore

Adding 1.5Mb of source files and 3.5Mb of Speed_Balls_16 made the installer size augment by 50%. I'll have to make a 3FFA map similar to Speed_Balls_16 but with a tiny filesize (and KPier look).
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

I can make a map of that sort, I think.
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KDR_11k
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Post by KDR_11k »

You don't have to put the source into the installer, you only need to provide a link where it can be downloaded.
[FP]Morbo
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Post by [FP]Morbo »

It reminds me of Darwinia and Geometry wars. I really like the graphical style of it.
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zwzsg
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Post by zwzsg »

I just uploaded a new version. Well, actually the mod is the same version, it's the installer that is different. It's bigger and uglier. So people who only play online and don't want to mess their Spring folder should NOT get it, as anyway the three mods files, as well as the maps, are unchanged. The change is that I included Spring74b3 so that in single player, it uses an outdated NTai, which plays much better and smoother than the new one. Tried to make the having an old spring inside the new spring as clean as possible, but I gladly agree the whole concept reeks. But at least it works, new user will have a playable single player experience! Also, don't forget to pay attention to the list of component when installing. For instance, there you can disable the adding of a 74b3 (and then shortcuts will point to the new Spring using the new NTai.dll). I hope I didn't bork anything, tell me if I did.

http://spring.unknown-files.net/file/35 ... taller_07/
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