Am I the only one that is glad SM3 dont work? I mean... seriosly... who can use a map format like that? I seriosly cant make a map in tha tformat its imposible.
aGorm
Community Mapping
Moderator: Moderators
+ 1 for Agorm
Besides FA and Smoth no Mapper seems to get along with that thing...
I found it always a little strange that sm3s biggest Fans are mainly Programmers and Coders. And that they never asked what we here would really love to do to maps. As i read it, sm3 is mainly what the Puplic and the Programmers want Maps to be.
Lots of Silence from the Artists Site...
i guess it will be another great feature never used.. but on the other Hand, maybe i am little prejudiced about that because my style of mapping wouldn`t work with this thing..
And Sm3 could be great with a RandomMap Generator..
Besides FA and Smoth no Mapper seems to get along with that thing...
I found it always a little strange that sm3s biggest Fans are mainly Programmers and Coders. And that they never asked what we here would really love to do to maps. As i read it, sm3 is mainly what the Puplic and the Programmers want Maps to be.
Lots of Silence from the Artists Site...
i guess it will be another great feature never used.. but on the other Hand, maybe i am little prejudiced about that because my style of mapping wouldn`t work with this thing..
And Sm3 could be great with a RandomMap Generator..
Nobody uses it because nobodies sure wether its ready or not, or even whats wrong with it currently.
aGorm, its an easy format. Heres a texture. Heres a picture saying where to put the texture. If this point of the map is bright white on the picture put the texture here. If its black dont, if its gray fade it in.
The only awkward part is features which would be best placed via a lua gaia script instead.
aGorm, its an easy format. Heres a texture. Heres a picture saying where to put the texture. If this point of the map is bright white on the picture put the texture here. If its black dont, if its gray fade it in.
The only awkward part is features which would be best placed via a lua gaia script instead.
No, its not. Its a Programmers format for Programmers. Mappers are artists, not programmers. I do NOT want to have to code a damn thing to make my map good. Its bad enough i have to be arsed to make a fucking fs.txt file for mapconv to read non-standard features.AF wrote:Nobody uses it because nobodies sure wether its ready or not, or even whats wrong with it currently.
aGorm, its an easy format. Heres a texture. Heres a picture saying where to put the texture. If this point of the map is bright white on the picture put the texture here. If its black dont, if its gray fade it in.
The only awkward part is features which would be best placed via a lua gaia script instead.
hmm?
Explain why l3dt uses an identical rendering setup using similair methods?
The age of the gigantic bitmap passed long ago, all the half decent terrain renderers use texture splattering these days, and blendmaps are the best way to represent that.
In the mean time:
A) Downlaod the feature compiler tool and type in the name of your feature, and tis co-ords
or
B) Write a lua gaia file thats just the same command over and over again copy pasted with the same parameters in them as option A.
The only difference is that you can modify the features in Option B whereas A insists you type them all out again and recompile. It isnt really programming, its a command copy pasted 100 times with a value changed.
And you know what that means, its easy to generate automatically!
Explain why l3dt uses an identical rendering setup using similair methods?
The age of the gigantic bitmap passed long ago, all the half decent terrain renderers use texture splattering these days, and blendmaps are the best way to represent that.
In the mean time:
A) Downlaod the feature compiler tool and type in the name of your feature, and tis co-ords
or
B) Write a lua gaia file thats just the same command over and over again copy pasted with the same parameters in them as option A.
The only difference is that you can modify the features in Option B whereas A insists you type them all out again and recompile. It isnt really programming, its a command copy pasted 100 times with a value changed.
And you know what that means, its easy to generate automatically!
Im with AF on this one, if you use a renderer that can export masks/blendmaps its dead easy and we would have maps that are only on average two to five mb in size regardless of the maps physical size.
The current map format can`t touch .sm3 for texture detail, not to mention all the other bells and whistles that go along with it like specular lighting and hardware-real time bump mapping, Its a crying shame that sm3 will probably shrivel and die.
FYI, Supreme commander uses a map format very similar to sm3.
The current map format can`t touch .sm3 for texture detail, not to mention all the other bells and whistles that go along with it like specular lighting and hardware-real time bump mapping, Its a crying shame that sm3 will probably shrivel and die.
FYI, Supreme commander uses a map format very similar to sm3.
Last edited by mufdvr222 on 09 Aug 2007, 12:45, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, but I dont like l3dt do I...
Im sorry but SM3 is very hard to get right because you cant change things in relation to each other. I look at the texture on my map and go, oh it hsould be darker here, and I should do somthing to that mud there to make it funky, In SM3 Id have to create a brand new bunch of textures, spend ages atempting to get the blend map right, look at it and go "well realy this would look 1000xs better in the old format"
Everything done with texture splating just feels fake... even what FA did with wakamirewhateverthingy didnt look as good as his original (dispite better texture res and bumpmaping)
aGorm
Im sorry but SM3 is very hard to get right because you cant change things in relation to each other. I look at the texture on my map and go, oh it hsould be darker here, and I should do somthing to that mud there to make it funky, In SM3 Id have to create a brand new bunch of textures, spend ages atempting to get the blend map right, look at it and go "well realy this would look 1000xs better in the old format"
Everything done with texture splating just feels fake... even what FA did with wakamirewhateverthingy didnt look as good as his original (dispite better texture res and bumpmaping)
aGorm
That's exactly what it is, the basic map textures in all the supcom maps would look like shit in springs engine, in supcom maps you do the base texture and then add texture decals where you want more detail and normal decals to create localised bump mapping like, rock here or mud there and erosion down the side of that hill, then the game engine renders a fog like effect over the map texture as you zoom out with a colour that seems to be an average of the underlying terrain texture colour, masking the otherwise obvious and ugly tiling artefacts.AF wrote:As a side note, supcoms texture splattering isnt nearly as advanced as ours, it seems to be just basic texture tiling system implemented using splattering.
These are things that could be implemented in springs sm3 format but that in all fairness would hinge on us having an editor that can render everything on screen in real time.
AF, you are a programmer, not an artist. You have no way of understanding how much I hate anything even close to programming or coding related. I don't even like doing basic math.
I don't give a damn about how much more effiecent or "better" sm3 is, it doesn't work, and even if it did, i wouldn't use it. It's impossible to get the same detail in sm3 as you can in the current format. When i'm mapping in TAS, CSS, or any other game, in no way should I be required to code more than a few lines. LUA? FUCK THAT.
I don't care how awesome LUA is, i never want to touch it. Not in a million years. You can call me backwards, you can call me an ass, but its not going to change my mind on the subject.
Mapping is for artists, not programmers, keep your code away from my art!
I don't give a damn about how much more effiecent or "better" sm3 is, it doesn't work, and even if it did, i wouldn't use it. It's impossible to get the same detail in sm3 as you can in the current format. When i'm mapping in TAS, CSS, or any other game, in no way should I be required to code more than a few lines. LUA? FUCK THAT.
I don't care how awesome LUA is, i never want to touch it. Not in a million years. You can call me backwards, you can call me an ass, but its not going to change my mind on the subject.
Mapping is for artists, not programmers, keep your code away from my art!
Coders can provide the scripts for mappers to use, with the proper coordination.Quanto042 wrote:AF, you are a programmer, not an artist. You have no way of understanding how much I hate anything even close to programming or coding related. I don't even like doing basic math.
I don't give a damn about how much more effiecent or "better" sm3 is, it doesn't work, and even if it did, i wouldn't use it. It's impossible to get the same detail in sm3 as you can in the current format. When i'm mapping in TAS, CSS, or any other game, in no way should I be required to code more than a few lines. LUA? FUCK THAT.
I don't care how awesome LUA is, i never want to touch it. Not in a million years. You can call me backwards, you can call me an ass, but its not going to change my mind on the subject.
Mapping is for artists, not programmers, keep your code away from my art!
A Engineer once wrote:
THe Reason why complete new Technology fails is, when it can`t rely on old standard knowledge to work on. Thats why Fusions dosen`t work and steamEgine using Radioactive Powerplants work.
Same thing here, why cant there be a compromise for us ARtists.. something like Placeholdercolours where you fill in a StandardTexture and outoblendin... no it has to be the GREAT STEP FORWARD. Other have that done suxesfull... Mao, Stalin... all those great steps forward over the cliff...
Me mad again,,, dont take that serious..
THe Reason why complete new Technology fails is, when it can`t rely on old standard knowledge to work on. Thats why Fusions dosen`t work and steamEgine using Radioactive Powerplants work.
Same thing here, why cant there be a compromise for us ARtists.. something like Placeholdercolours where you fill in a StandardTexture and outoblendin... no it has to be the GREAT STEP FORWARD. Other have that done suxesfull... Mao, Stalin... all those great steps forward over the cliff...
Me mad again,,, dont take that serious..
So, to cut out a long explanation, I haven't been at my computer for about a week now - instead using my Linux browsing box (Which now can't run Firefox as I tried to give it Flash support), my work computer and my fiancee's computer.
The three-way map, a sea map and that one map for TA-Battlefield are all sitting there, gathering dust.
The three-way map, a sea map and that one map for TA-Battlefield are all sitting there, gathering dust.
Quanto.
It is not programming, there is no math, I can type:
CreateFeature("tree5",10,20,30)
and spring will spawn a tree5 feature at co-ords(10,20,30)
OR
I can load up jelmers feature compiler program and type
tree5 *tab* 10 *tab* 20 *enter
Now tell me where is the arithmetics? Perhaps copy paste is too much like math for you. Infact those smd files you write are far more complex than a simple statement copy pasted lots of times.
It is very very very simple, and your dismissing it in favour of the very very annoying and complex feature compiler program.
Then theres the other beenfits:
- If I have to change a single feature from tree2 to tree3 using the feature compiler I have to re-input every single feature on my map, possibly hundreds of them. Whereas I can just do ctrl+f and search for tree2 and change the 2 to a 3.
And please dont insult me. I am both an artist and a coder. I got an A* on my gcse art coursework and I do artwork all the time as a hobby. I've built units, made maps, and done allsorts, yet I dont release artwork or spam it in #main. You'd be surprised by the amount of things I have here I havent shown anybody.
So Im not clueless am I? Please dont act like an old woman who insists somethings too complicated for her to udnerstand.
An old woman of 70 stands in an empty room with blank walls and floors save for a door with a big red button labelled open. Shes she can leave she just has to press the red button, "Oh all these buttons, these new fangled computers are too complicated for me" she says, so she sits there for hours on end insisting its too complicated.
It is not programming, there is no math, I can type:
CreateFeature("tree5",10,20,30)
and spring will spawn a tree5 feature at co-ords(10,20,30)
OR
I can load up jelmers feature compiler program and type
tree5 *tab* 10 *tab* 20 *enter
Now tell me where is the arithmetics? Perhaps copy paste is too much like math for you. Infact those smd files you write are far more complex than a simple statement copy pasted lots of times.
It is very very very simple, and your dismissing it in favour of the very very annoying and complex feature compiler program.
Then theres the other beenfits:
- If I have to change a single feature from tree2 to tree3 using the feature compiler I have to re-input every single feature on my map, possibly hundreds of them. Whereas I can just do ctrl+f and search for tree2 and change the 2 to a 3.
And please dont insult me. I am both an artist and a coder. I got an A* on my gcse art coursework and I do artwork all the time as a hobby. I've built units, made maps, and done allsorts, yet I dont release artwork or spam it in #main. You'd be surprised by the amount of things I have here I havent shown anybody.
So Im not clueless am I? Please dont act like an old woman who insists somethings too complicated for her to udnerstand.
An old woman of 70 stands in an empty room with blank walls and floors save for a door with a big red button labelled open. Shes she can leave she just has to press the red button, "Oh all these buttons, these new fangled computers are too complicated for me" she says, so she sits there for hours on end insisting its too complicated.
AF it is very very simple, indeed. But not simple enough. Point.
Artist thought is - i want Trees there, there and there. I don´t want to read manuals, i don´t want to calculate, the very best would be if i could completely forget about the Program. ...
And you might think the above Example quite easy enough
-But I - having spend some time with Messed UP GUIs (yes i am talking about 3dsMax), think that most Programmers have very little understanding for People outside there circles. There is not without Reason a whole Crowd of Companys out there just designing easy to use Gadgets, Programs and so on.
Just think about Cell-Phones. They were quite simple in the Beginning - and then some Cool Features came around - and you could buy the coolest and abelst Cellphone - and it came along with a Manual that was three times bigger then the Phone. Its a hard slap to take, but just because you can forge something, and get used to it in the developing process - it is not automatically easy to use for every other beeing out there.
..
Reading my own written stuff, i notice i sound like my Grandparents, complaining about there TV-Remote Controll... age is something ugly, avoid it happening to you!
Suma Sumarum:
Programs should have alle Options, even the old Bitmap options. And it should be easy, drag &drop to use for beginners, and having shortcuts for Advanced Users..
Artist thought is - i want Trees there, there and there. I don´t want to read manuals, i don´t want to calculate, the very best would be if i could completely forget about the Program. ...
And you might think the above Example quite easy enough
-But I - having spend some time with Messed UP GUIs (yes i am talking about 3dsMax), think that most Programmers have very little understanding for People outside there circles. There is not without Reason a whole Crowd of Companys out there just designing easy to use Gadgets, Programs and so on.
Just think about Cell-Phones. They were quite simple in the Beginning - and then some Cool Features came around - and you could buy the coolest and abelst Cellphone - and it came along with a Manual that was three times bigger then the Phone. Its a hard slap to take, but just because you can forge something, and get used to it in the developing process - it is not automatically easy to use for every other beeing out there.
..
Reading my own written stuff, i notice i sound like my Grandparents, complaining about there TV-Remote Controll... age is something ugly, avoid it happening to you!
Suma Sumarum:
Programs should have alle Options, even the old Bitmap options. And it should be easy, drag &drop to use for beginners, and having shortcuts for Advanced Users..
Its not that tha tI dont like... Its just that with SM3 I cant map what I imagin, infact nothing I do in it comes out like i imagn. Stuff in old format is ecatly as i imagin it in my mind. Sometimes actully better. Hence, why the smeg would I want to change...
And Im not affraid of programing, Im a web designer and I know the basics. Thats not whats in teh way realy. Just that It simply does not give me the result I expect out of it.
aGorm
And Im not affraid of programing, Im a web designer and I know the basics. Thats not whats in teh way realy. Just that It simply does not give me the result I expect out of it.
aGorm
