People can now change the reclaim speed of units without affecting the workertime tag. Features balanced with energy values to slow reclaim down can really ruin gameplay in mods which dont have gradual reclaim.Decimator wrote:We don't have any method to make reclaiming take longer other than adding energy in addition to the metal.
Islands in war(reuploaded).
Moderator: Moderators
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
http://spring.unknown-files.net/file/32 ... ds_In_War/ - Broken? couldn't dl from any of the servers.
Hunterw - The image you posted is amazing, do you think it was really made with worldmachine? if so i think i have get that one.
Hunterw - The image you posted is amazing, do you think it was really made with worldmachine? if so i think i have get that one.
I would argue that open areas fo land on the islands simply arent big enough by a huge margin.
Make all the islands twice as big at least in some dimension, and get rid fo the water north and south if there isnt going to be anything there.
In TA absed mods on a water map, if theres an island, you use it, and you try to build lvl 2 stuff, btu buildign on land on this mapa tm si annoying because half the island has awkwards dimensions for its buildable area, its too long and thin for comfort. Raise the middle area thats not as high where you start, or move it over so the bit that wraps around is more level with it.
And again, fix the shallow region so its texture changes where kbots and vehicles cant walk but you can build shipyards, its coutner intuitive atm that kbots cant reach the smaller geothermal islands but theres no texture change showing it.
Make all the islands twice as big at least in some dimension, and get rid fo the water north and south if there isnt going to be anything there.
In TA absed mods on a water map, if theres an island, you use it, and you try to build lvl 2 stuff, btu buildign on land on this mapa tm si annoying because half the island has awkwards dimensions for its buildable area, its too long and thin for comfort. Raise the middle area thats not as high where you start, or move it over so the bit that wraps around is more level with it.
And again, fix the shallow region so its texture changes where kbots and vehicles cant walk but you can build shipyards, its coutner intuitive atm that kbots cant reach the smaller geothermal islands but theres no texture change showing it.
consider that movetypes vary from TA mod, to ta mod also that sand is sand is sand in the ocean. Unless there is a reason the shallows will be sand as well. Now, in CA and XTA it was fine, I was told to test it in XTA. I made the land mass small as per the request when I made the map.AF wrote: And again, fix the shallow region so its texture changes where kbots and vehicles cant walk but you can build shipyards, its coutner intuitive atm that kbots cant reach the smaller geothermal islands but theres no texture change showing it.
As requested, a detailed critique of this map as a 1v1 map in BA 5.5 (Though much of this also applies to other mods and player counts).
Firstly...
Techincal Issues
With basic trees (IE, no transparency) they obscure the the view of some of the metal spots (as well as looking terrible, but not much you can do about that i guess). Missing the chance to mex because you cannot see the metal spot is a real pain.
The water is rather too deep. There is nothing in any game im aware of that even makes use of water that deep. This is only a problem due to the way movement orders for ships are made. If you give a movement order to a ship, the movement order will be placed on the ground, beneath the water, and the ship will move to the water above it. This means that if you are playing with perspective on your camera, it is hard to give precise movement orders. For a demonstration of this, place the camera on an extreme angle and give a ship a movement order just in front of it- then watch where the ship goes, and where your movement order was actually placed. This is, i fully admit, an engine issue rather than an issue with your map, but since the depth of the water has few gameplay consequences, reducing the waters depth is a good work-around.
As mentioned previously there is no metal texture on the map. If you intend on adding one, make sure it is -very- bright under the water, so that it can actually be seen. Personally this is only a minor thing as a lot of maps require f4 to place metal anyway.
At some points, the water is too shallow- specifically the two mex spots on the 'land bridge' (though not a bridge at all). This means that arm (And ONLY arm) underwater mexes will poke out of the water, and be attackable by hovers, corvettes, scout boats, etc.
The blue lighting scheme with the dark water can compromise visibility, especially when reflective water is on. However, it is understandable that it is a compromise between visibility and attractiveness, and people can always play with water 0 if they want better visibility.
Now, from a balance perspective.
The Economy
Wind and Tidal area reasonable, but due to the layout of the map, they may present a problem. There are large areas that are inaccessible to hovers or naval bombardment where wind could be placed, and there is a huge expanse of sea with many areas to put tidal farms in which can go undiscovered the entire game.
There is too much metal in the starting areas for 1v1 play. A player can quite rapidly claim all the mexes on the islands (especially if he starts amphib or kbot - hover), and be getting a very high income. This downplays expansion and territory control. The features only exacerbate this problem.
There is a very large amount of underwater metal, which contributes to the previous problem. It is mostly scattered broadly across the map, allowing a player to claim it uncontested (As it is hard to catch all his constructors). As is the nature of underwater metal extractors, they are quite hard to dislodge without a sub or destroyer (Which is later-game, expensive and can be hard to raid with). This is probably one of the major flaws in BA's sea balance, that raiding sea mexes is so hard. However, with careful consideration of this factor you can create a more structured map allowing a back-and-forth flow over small contested areas, where the borders between one players territory and anothers can be more easily drawn. With this in mind, the original dimensions of the map would probably have been better.
Layout
On the whole, the map is too large for 1v1 play. With the players starting relatively in the centre of the map, there are many directions to expand, allowing for rapid simultaneous, unprotected expansion (Which favours relatively cheap amphibs and hovers over expensive construction ships) with little contest or challenge. In order for an enemy to stop sea expansion, they must have a constant presence in an area to destroy any constructors, as once sea mexes are up they require a concerted effort to remove. This makes fighting over sea territory difficult and often, fruitless. All that open ocean with nothing in it makes meaningful defence impossible, especially with expensive ships and sea-based defences.
The main islands are hard to assault, and offer no chance to claim their territory. That is to say, once you have made a beachhead on the enemy island, you have essentially already won the game. There is only one area where hovers can land, and much of the island is safe from sea bombardment (though many of the mexes are exposed). This means there is no contest whatsoever for land territory. As a side note, the right island has more areas to land hovers than the left.
The majority of the map is not even used. In most cases, it isnt worth defending or fighting over. The only areas really worth contesting are the 4 3-mex spots in the sea, which can be attacked (or, mexed) virtually at leisure from any angle, heavily favouring mobile forces over static defense. It is usually better to keep your army at home, at your well-defended base, and only making sorties when necessary.
The middle islands have nothing to contest for. Since the only way to get on them is with amphibs or air, the likelyhood of these being claimed is further reduced. With the viability of wind and tidal, the geovents arent worth taking. Most of the reclaim on the island can be taken by sea constructors, anyway.
In summary (tl;dr) the map favours porcing your starting island, and only expanding in order to initially capture the underwater mexes, which are subsequently difficult to fight over (And usually, not worth fighting over). The best approach is then generally to mass a large enough force to take the other player out entirely, taking his island and ending the game.
Firstly...
Techincal Issues
With basic trees (IE, no transparency) they obscure the the view of some of the metal spots (as well as looking terrible, but not much you can do about that i guess). Missing the chance to mex because you cannot see the metal spot is a real pain.
The water is rather too deep. There is nothing in any game im aware of that even makes use of water that deep. This is only a problem due to the way movement orders for ships are made. If you give a movement order to a ship, the movement order will be placed on the ground, beneath the water, and the ship will move to the water above it. This means that if you are playing with perspective on your camera, it is hard to give precise movement orders. For a demonstration of this, place the camera on an extreme angle and give a ship a movement order just in front of it- then watch where the ship goes, and where your movement order was actually placed. This is, i fully admit, an engine issue rather than an issue with your map, but since the depth of the water has few gameplay consequences, reducing the waters depth is a good work-around.
As mentioned previously there is no metal texture on the map. If you intend on adding one, make sure it is -very- bright under the water, so that it can actually be seen. Personally this is only a minor thing as a lot of maps require f4 to place metal anyway.
At some points, the water is too shallow- specifically the two mex spots on the 'land bridge' (though not a bridge at all). This means that arm (And ONLY arm) underwater mexes will poke out of the water, and be attackable by hovers, corvettes, scout boats, etc.
The blue lighting scheme with the dark water can compromise visibility, especially when reflective water is on. However, it is understandable that it is a compromise between visibility and attractiveness, and people can always play with water 0 if they want better visibility.
Now, from a balance perspective.
The Economy
Wind and Tidal area reasonable, but due to the layout of the map, they may present a problem. There are large areas that are inaccessible to hovers or naval bombardment where wind could be placed, and there is a huge expanse of sea with many areas to put tidal farms in which can go undiscovered the entire game.
There is too much metal in the starting areas for 1v1 play. A player can quite rapidly claim all the mexes on the islands (especially if he starts amphib or kbot - hover), and be getting a very high income. This downplays expansion and territory control. The features only exacerbate this problem.
There is a very large amount of underwater metal, which contributes to the previous problem. It is mostly scattered broadly across the map, allowing a player to claim it uncontested (As it is hard to catch all his constructors). As is the nature of underwater metal extractors, they are quite hard to dislodge without a sub or destroyer (Which is later-game, expensive and can be hard to raid with). This is probably one of the major flaws in BA's sea balance, that raiding sea mexes is so hard. However, with careful consideration of this factor you can create a more structured map allowing a back-and-forth flow over small contested areas, where the borders between one players territory and anothers can be more easily drawn. With this in mind, the original dimensions of the map would probably have been better.
Layout
On the whole, the map is too large for 1v1 play. With the players starting relatively in the centre of the map, there are many directions to expand, allowing for rapid simultaneous, unprotected expansion (Which favours relatively cheap amphibs and hovers over expensive construction ships) with little contest or challenge. In order for an enemy to stop sea expansion, they must have a constant presence in an area to destroy any constructors, as once sea mexes are up they require a concerted effort to remove. This makes fighting over sea territory difficult and often, fruitless. All that open ocean with nothing in it makes meaningful defence impossible, especially with expensive ships and sea-based defences.
The main islands are hard to assault, and offer no chance to claim their territory. That is to say, once you have made a beachhead on the enemy island, you have essentially already won the game. There is only one area where hovers can land, and much of the island is safe from sea bombardment (though many of the mexes are exposed). This means there is no contest whatsoever for land territory. As a side note, the right island has more areas to land hovers than the left.
The majority of the map is not even used. In most cases, it isnt worth defending or fighting over. The only areas really worth contesting are the 4 3-mex spots in the sea, which can be attacked (or, mexed) virtually at leisure from any angle, heavily favouring mobile forces over static defense. It is usually better to keep your army at home, at your well-defended base, and only making sorties when necessary.
The middle islands have nothing to contest for. Since the only way to get on them is with amphibs or air, the likelyhood of these being claimed is further reduced. With the viability of wind and tidal, the geovents arent worth taking. Most of the reclaim on the island can be taken by sea constructors, anyway.
In summary (tl;dr) the map favours porcing your starting island, and only expanding in order to initially capture the underwater mexes, which are subsequently difficult to fight over (And usually, not worth fighting over). The best approach is then generally to mass a large enough force to take the other player out entirely, taking his island and ending the game.
Another balance issue: The left player can mex all his 9 mexes with a conveh, the right player cant (Some are stuck behind a mountain). This only poses a slight problem as any player going vech is doing it for the amphibs, and amphibs have the slope tolerance to mex that spot. Just something to be aware of for players, more than anything, i dont know if it really needs fix that bad.
Id have to play some 2v2 games to comment on how it plays with that. Its probably better for a 2v2.
If i wanted to fix this map as a 1v1 map, id do the following (Other than the obvious, technical things, like trees blocking the mexes- something i really hate about this map now):
Remove most of the surrounding water, the parts you added in. They dont feature much, especially the corners, other than places to hide tidals and ways to totally ignore and go around the enemies defenses and expansions. The water at the back isnt so bad though i guess- you can do a good amphib rush from the back (Which works great).
Reduce the metal, if you want it to be viable for 1v1's. Especially on the starting island- all that starting metal really mimizes the importance of expansion into the sea (Other than to just nab some mexes ASAP so that he'll need to go subs or make torp launchers to get rid of them). Id use something other than the 3-3-3 setup as well, as it encourages people to think of the map as a 3v3, and makes, say, 4v4's etc, more difficult when it comes to divvying up the mexes.
Make the geo island more something to fight over- lower it, so hovers can use it and destroyers can bombard it, and put some metal on it (or in the sea directly around it, or both).
Id have to play some 2v2 games to comment on how it plays with that. Its probably better for a 2v2.
If i wanted to fix this map as a 1v1 map, id do the following (Other than the obvious, technical things, like trees blocking the mexes- something i really hate about this map now):
Remove most of the surrounding water, the parts you added in. They dont feature much, especially the corners, other than places to hide tidals and ways to totally ignore and go around the enemies defenses and expansions. The water at the back isnt so bad though i guess- you can do a good amphib rush from the back (Which works great).
Reduce the metal, if you want it to be viable for 1v1's. Especially on the starting island- all that starting metal really mimizes the importance of expansion into the sea (Other than to just nab some mexes ASAP so that he'll need to go subs or make torp launchers to get rid of them). Id use something other than the 3-3-3 setup as well, as it encourages people to think of the map as a 3v3, and makes, say, 4v4's etc, more difficult when it comes to divvying up the mexes.
Make the geo island more something to fight over- lower it, so hovers can use it and destroyers can bombard it, and put some metal on it (or in the sea directly around it, or both).
