How do you stop LUA that cheats?
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Don't even get me started zwzsg! OTA understood the concept of skilled micro. Painted Desert was a pro map. If you couldn't click on 3 rocks per second, you were a newbie and should be playing Crash Bandicoot or something. Spring has turned it into newbie paradise. Any lamer can area-reclaim the whole friggin' map! Then there is giving orders to partially constructed factories/units. HELLO? More of this skill-less "set it and forget it" Spring newbie philosophy. What am I supposed to be doing with my extra time? FPSing my commander? Well, actually, I have to hand it to the SYs with FPS mode. This was a true innovation. It is just too bad that they left it as a gimmick instead of taking it to its logical conclusion. Imagine what a pro game this would be if you had to FPS all of your units! No more sitting back watching the computer play the game for me. I am in the cockpit or the unit is just idling. In retrospect, I expected nothing less from the SYs. After all, they are the hacker group that released a set of cheats for OTA allowing you do things like build whole lines of tidals in a couple clicks. I could probably rant on for pages! LuaUI is just the beginning! I fully expect Spring to be a screensaver within 2 years.
It has already happened to other games, it will happen to Spring! Example: Progress Quest
100% of most people have always agreed that that the problem is snowballing down a slippery slope!
100% of most people have always agreed that that the problem is snowballing down a slippery slope!
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Tim-the-maniac
- Posts: 250
- Joined: 22 Jul 2006, 19:58
What are you taking about, these are some of the cool features that make spring so cooldet wrote:Don't even get me started zwzsg! OTA understood the concept of skilled micro. Painted Desert was a pro map. If you couldn't click on 3 rocks per second, you were a newbie and should be playing Crash Bandicoot or something. Spring has turned it into newbie paradise. Any lamer can area-reclaim the whole friggin' map! Then there is giving orders to partially constructed factories/units. HELLO? More of this skill-less "set it and forget it" Spring newbie philosophy. What am I supposed to be doing with my extra time? FPSing my commander? Well, actually, I have to hand it to the SYs with FPS mode. This was a true innovation. It is just too bad that they left it as a gimmick instead of taking it to its logical conclusion. Imagine what a pro game this would be if you had to FPS all of your units! No more sitting back watching the computer play the game for me. I am in the cockpit or the unit is just idling. In retrospect, I expected nothing less from the SYs. After all, they are the hacker group that released a set of cheats for OTA allowing you do things like build whole lines of tidals in a couple clicks. I could probably rant on for pages! LuaUI is just the beginning! I fully expect Spring to be a screensaver within 2 years.
Take those away and you would be better off playing C&C, Starcratf, or just about any other RTS
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
gamer17 wrote:tombom wrote:are you stupidgamer17 wrote:[...]
because you are
no, but you are
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I hate you.quantum wrote:All the things that LuaUI takes out of the player's hand aren't really things that enhance the game. Like setting your factiories on repeat, putting your rockos on hold position, giving patrol orders to each nano, and remembering to give your stuff away before you die. All that falls in the pointless micro category, and Spring is designed around the principle that pointless micro is to be avoided.
Comm ends in team games are silly in .74b3 and earlier, and you didn't need my widget to realize it. It doesn't make much difference if you eluded the comm ends rule with a widget or you remembered to do it yourself.
Besides, it's on UF, available to everyone, and it announces clearly it's name when it has been used. It's no unfair advantage.
Giving away all your stuff except the comm before he blows is a LOT different than using a LUA to protect yourself. If you don't use the LUA, you have to:
1. keep a constant eye on your com to see if he is going to die, or if you are going to suicide him manage him so he survives long enough to give you time to give everything away before he blows up.
2. select everything but your com, or including the com if you don't care where he blows up. Then press H, find an ally in the list, choose him, check the apply units box, and give away.
With the LUA?
1. Pay close attention to your nanos building adv solars and metalmakers and then ask in chat why your ally is controlling your stuff now only to be told your com was killed and LUA gave all your stuff to an ally.
Finally, let's get something straight. Giving away your stuff manually in com ends is and has always been pretty sketchy, but it's generally not complained against because people recognize it takes a little bit of skill and effort to time it right and pay attention to your com. But having a LUAUI widget designed to circumvent the RULES SET BY THE HOST is just stupid, you should never have made such a dumb widget.
+1But having a LUAUI widget designed to circumvent the RULES SET BY THE HOST is just stupid, you should never have made such a dumb widget
I also think timing your comm bomb on game ends and giving away your stuff manually is complete bollocks too, wether it takes skill or not, it's still cheating.
My previous post was a little bit short, I'll expand on my stance abit.
Generally, if it's not illegal, it's legal. A smart Lua widget giving stuff WILL be indistinguishable from a player doing the same thing. This means that available options are:
1) disable LuaUI completely. plausible.
2) define a subset of allowed widgets. not plausible - not possible to do this in a secure way.
3) implement rules that make it impossible to cheat. (lineage mode as was mentioned before.) plausible, if tricky.
Note that differentiating player input and Lua input is practically impossible in LuaUI current state. If you really want to disable the core of LuaUI - issuing orders to units - you need to clearly state what should be allowed and what should not be, and then trepan and co. comes in and tells you what is possible and what isn't.
Case study: WoW generally and decursive mod particularly. Changes (restrictions) in Lua API made it through with changes in core gameplay rules, because the old rules weren't really playable.
Other cases: quake 1/2/3/CPMA and rocketjump scripts. CS and bunnyhop scripts. These I consider cheating, because they do too much or take away too much risks.
LuaUI is infinitely more powerful than quake/cs scripts, the question is wheter it's too much. I think LuaUI is in a state that would make writing a simple AI possible (it would run slow as hell, but it would run.) But is it too much? I think humans with some LuaUI aids wouldl wipe the floor with a LuaUI bot.
Where the core problem lies is when a player which is objectively worse (loses most of the time on equal grounds) gets an advantage big enough to tip the scales and win most of the time with his LuaUI addons. When that happens, I'll be the first one to call for LuaUI nerfs. Until then, IMHO all is fine.
Generally, if it's not illegal, it's legal. A smart Lua widget giving stuff WILL be indistinguishable from a player doing the same thing. This means that available options are:
1) disable LuaUI completely. plausible.
2) define a subset of allowed widgets. not plausible - not possible to do this in a secure way.
3) implement rules that make it impossible to cheat. (lineage mode as was mentioned before.) plausible, if tricky.
Note that differentiating player input and Lua input is practically impossible in LuaUI current state. If you really want to disable the core of LuaUI - issuing orders to units - you need to clearly state what should be allowed and what should not be, and then trepan and co. comes in and tells you what is possible and what isn't.
Case study: WoW generally and decursive mod particularly. Changes (restrictions) in Lua API made it through with changes in core gameplay rules, because the old rules weren't really playable.
Other cases: quake 1/2/3/CPMA and rocketjump scripts. CS and bunnyhop scripts. These I consider cheating, because they do too much or take away too much risks.
LuaUI is infinitely more powerful than quake/cs scripts, the question is wheter it's too much. I think LuaUI is in a state that would make writing a simple AI possible (it would run slow as hell, but it would run.) But is it too much? I think humans with some LuaUI aids wouldl wipe the floor with a LuaUI bot.
Where the core problem lies is when a player which is objectively worse (loses most of the time on equal grounds) gets an advantage big enough to tip the scales and win most of the time with his LuaUI addons. When that happens, I'll be the first one to call for LuaUI nerfs. Until then, IMHO all is fine.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
If he didn't someone else would have.jackalope wrote:quantum wrote: Finally, let's get something straight. Giving away your stuff manually in com ends is and has always been pretty sketchy, but it's generally not complained against because people recognize it takes a little bit of skill and effort to time it right and pay attention to your com. But having a LUAUI widget designed to circumvent the RULES SET BY THE HOST is just stupid, you should never have made such a dumb widget.
Spring's comm ends system has been outdated for a million years, it's time to fix it anyways.