A useless thread. I'll re-submit later.

[Argh]

Please, please, please... two minor patches... if nobody responds, and the release is at least a week out, I will write them myself, but these should be trivial...

1. Can Smoke ExplosionGenerator code be changed, to allow us to set the directory that it looks for Smoke1, etc., in? Then we can have lots of different kinds of "smoke". I'm not going to bother asking for animated versions of the more powerful generators, since that was politely ignored the last time I asked, but this should be trivial.

2. Can the default fire / smoke code invocation (for dying things, burning trees, etc.) be instead pointed to default, GPL'd ExplosionGenerators, included with Spring? I will HAPPILY WRITE BETTER ONES THAN WE HAVE NOW THAT ARE STILL FAST if somebody will just take the hard-coded ones out and point them towards these!

Both of these things could have major benefits in the visual quality of Spring. I will be very happy to volunteer labor for job no. 2., and if anybody does write code that will let me use multiple frames of animation within the CSphereParticleSpawner and CSimpleParticleGenerator code (or a two new, named variants, say CSphereParticleSpawnerAnim and CSimpleParticleGeneratorAnim, because we don't want to add this overhead to every FX we write) I will put an Easter Egg into my game for you- it'd increase the visual quality of my FX by about 100% over what I have already been able to achieve with the current code.

[KDR_11k]

Does the GPL even make sense on plaintext files? I thought it was just for code that gets compiled. Or do you suggest we use non-code files to force everyone to offer up their code files and have no way to stop people from making derivative mods?

[AF]

code is afterall plaintext.

[Guessmyname]

Why do we need to GPL the current explosion generators? It's not they aren't freely available at the moment anyway...

[jcnossen]

GPL'd ExplosionGenerators, included with Spring?

There is no such thing as binary explosion generators, so everyone is already opensourcing them..
GPL is meant for code, not small mod scripts. Nobody knows what the GPL exactly means in the context of a mod. Do I need to release all my code for the mod? Or just the stuff that uses the GPL scripts..
It doesn't really help any sharing of code either. Contributors are simply scared by GPL code so they rewrite it themself or use something else.
Sorry for the rant but I had to say it..

[Tobi]

+1

Just make it public domain or something like that, at least more people understand that and it doesn't require each mod that links to the generator to be GPL too...

[zwzsg]

That reminds me I had that flame that I kept ready, but wasn't sure about posting, since, well, I don't see how any good would come out of flaming Argh. But since it's so on topic:

• • Download NanoBlobs 0.64 GPL, either from:
    • Spring's download page's GPL content installer.
    • unknown-files
    While doing so, please notice the importance already given to words such as "GPL-compliant" or "licensed under GPL"
  • Get 7-zip, or even a plain winzip.
  • With 7-zip, open NanoBlobs064.sdz
  • Count the number of files in the root of that zip whose filename end with license.txt
  • Go into /scripts/, and open STANDARD_COMMANDS_GPL.h, notice the first two lines.
• • Install Total Annihilation
  • Get HPIView
  • Run HPIView, file->open, and open totala1.hpi
  • Go into /scripts/, and open sfxtype.h as well as sfxtype.h
• Compare

moderator: flames removed. This is about Argh's GPL policy, not about whatever you think of him.

Therefore, feel free to use any of Argh bos. They are not protected by GPL. If he objects, just tell that slapping a GPL header on a Cavedog file does not make it his own.

[Pxtl]

Use BSD license for scripts that are only useful in plaintext form. Or LGPL, which at least makes minimal sense when applied to scripts. The GPL applying to that kind of script is like saying "how big is water?"

[quantum]

I think you can change the default smoke in resources.tdf. Anyway, imho the simple particle generator is much better for anything.

It's not exactly what you asked, but you can use animations with the CSphereParticleSpawner class, even though it's a bit clunky. Check out this explosion in CA for an example. Feel free to use the explosions in CA with no restrictions.

The topic is kind of moot now, though. You can make your own effects (including ones that use shaders) by directly calling the OpenGL functions from within a Lua script. Check out trepan's cloak shield widget for an expanding sphere effect. Edit: did I say widget? I mean gadget.

[KDR_11k]

I haven't looked at the header files themselves but I doubt a bunch of #defines like that are protected by copyright since they are essentially a collection of facts about the Spring engine and facts are exempt from copyright law. IOW I don't think Cavedog or the FSF can claim ownership of such a file.

[Neddie]

That reminds me I had that flame that I kept ready, but wasn't sure about posting, since, well, I don't see how any good would come out of flaming Argh. But since it's so on topic:

• • Download NanoBlobs 0.64 GPL, either from:
    • Spring's download page's GPL content installer.
    • unknown-files
    While doing so, please notice the importance already given to words such as "GPL-compliant" or "licensed under GPL"
  • Get 7-zip, or even a plain winzip.
  • With 7-zip, open NanoBlobs064.sdz
  • Count the number of files in the root of that zip whose filename end with license.txt
  • Go into /scripts/, and open STANDARD_COMMANDS_GPL.h, notice the first two lines.
• • Install Total Annihilation
  • Get HPIView
  • Run HPIView, file->open, and open totala1.hpi
  • Go into /scripts/, and open sfxtype.h as well as sfxtype.h
• Compare

Therefore, feel free to use any of Argh bos. They are not protected by GPL. If he objects, just tell that slapping a GPL header on a Cavedog file does not make it his own.

Stiff words, zwzsg. However, I know you to be an honest and intelligent person, so I'll check it myself when I have the time. Just go a bit easy on the fire and brimstone. No reason to attack him personally, I think pressing on the real problem would do us all good.

Argh, any response?

[zwzsg]

I doubt a bunch of #defines like that are protected by copyright since they are essentially a collection of facts about the Spring engine and facts are exempt from copyright law. IOW I don't think Cavedog or the FSF can claim ownership of such a file.

Yes, indeed, I hope such .h files aren't copyrightable. Which means there is two different reasons why Argh's putting his GPL header on them is wrong. Which makes my point maybe a bit harder to send accross:

• Reason 1: a page of lines such as "#define PIECE_XZ 7" really should be considered out of the scope of copyrights. There's no algorithm, no code, just naming a few constants.
• Reason 2: his file is copied straight from Cavedog, he can't deny it! Heck, even the comments are the same characters by characters. Adding a couple lines doesn't make it an original work.

While those .h are the most extreme and obvious exemple, imo, the same two points applies to the rest of Argh's "GPL" scripts. Although it's a little less apparent (though proveable) that his walkscripts and smokescript and such are just edited Cavedog scripts, and little harder to argue they're too simple to be copyrightable.


Also, from I want I understand of the GPL, including any GPL code in a mod would force the whole mod to be entirely GPL. The whole "viral thing" of the GPL. Argh used GPL, not LPGL. But luckily, what he claims to have released under the GPL isn't, as slapping a GPL header on a file does not automatically make it GPL. It has to be a licensable stuff, and only the author can make it GPL, and Argh's files meet neither of these conditions.

[Snipawolf]

2. Can the default fire / smoke code invocation (for dying things, burning trees, etc.) be instead pointed to default, GPL'd ExplosionGenerators, included with Spring? I will HAPPILY WRITE BETTER ONES THAN WE HAVE NOW THAT ARE STILL FAST if somebody will just take the hard-coded ones out and point them towards these!

Stop the off topic argument. Argument about other shit apparently doesn't belong in a thread specifically meant to speak about smoke and fire generators.

You wanna call out to Argh? PM him or make a new thread with the faults of his use of GPL.

[zwzsg]

be instead pointed to default, GPL'd ExplosionGenerators, included with Spring?

I'm on topic!

[imbaczek]

Flaming someone because he's using GPL (or any other license) is pointless, stupid and (in this particular case) proves that you can't tell the difference between legal stuff and technical stuff. Stop doing that, it's a waste of time.

[Neddie]

Legal issues undermine technical ones, lads. I'm at work right now, so I'll be brief - we cannot dismiss either. Just deal with them at the same time.

[Argh]

1. I will release the sourcecode for these FX under the CC license used in NanoBlobs. However, this is mainly against my preference, and I think that people's misguided fears on this topic have little relevance to the merits of doing so. I don't feel like fighting about it, however- it's a fair deal for a patch.

2. Read the following link, and come back when you are more enlightened, zwzsg.

Either that, or never speak to me again on any topic, please, because your opinion, which I generally respect, will no longer be welcome counsel, and I will just ignore you, like I ignore many other people who are more trouble than they are worth.

I do not understand why a search of your posts for the last month mainly contains what I would consider rants and flames, and especially rants against me, when I have given plenty of my time in sincere efforts to help everybody here, took your critiques with as good a humor as I could, and bear you no personal ill-will. However, I would appreciate it in the future if you learned to be more diplomatic and mature in your approach.

Calling the guy who has been at the bleeding edge of Spring mod development since he arrived a "newb", and other unflattering expressions and dispersions about my personality or failures as a human being indicates that you must either not recognize that fact, or have some sort of serious issues going on in your personal life, that you choose to vent on people you don't know... in which case... I want you to leave me alone, ok?

Because getting flamed every time I present anything, or say anything, is non-productive activity.

I make games, ok? I'm very good at it, too.

However, I am not a god. I am not always right, I am not always a genius, I am not always perfect. I have limited time, limited emotional, physical and mental resources, and I am stretched far, far thinner than most people think, and my life is a lot more complicated than anybody here can understand. It's simply not fair to assume that I should take your abuse ad infinitum, and every time you do so, I am further tempted to simply say nothing, help no one, and keep all of my best work solely to myself

http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/resources/gp ... dy.1_div.4

See section entitled, "Common Myths about the GPL".

[zwzsg]

Flaming someone because he's using GPL (or any other license) is pointless, stupid and (in this particular case) proves that you can't tell the difference between legal stuff and technical stuff. Stop doing that, it's a waste of time.

Compare's Cavedog's and Argh's files, and come back when you have a clue, ok? (I detailed how to in my first post so even non hapi&sd7 savvy people can do it) Basically, it's like someone stole your daddy car, slapped a sticker reading "this belong to me and runs GPL", then the next morning when you try to use it, you're told you can't and you have to also give away your house keys. And when you complain, passerbys says that you! are the troublemaker. This is basically what Argh has done with nanoblobs, and is now trying to do with the Spring base files.

2. Read the following link, and come back when you are more enlightened, zwzsg.

I read your link. It doesn't explain how you can steal Cavedog's .h and rerelease them under GPL. It doesn't even give any hint about how GPL applies to mods, nor to simple header files.

Calling the guy who has been at the bleeding edge of Spring mod development since he arrived[...]I make games, ok? I'm very good at it, too.

Only you says it. I'd argue that people like KDR_11k, Smoth, FLOZi, are on bloodier edge, and are much better at making game. But then you'd say I'm flaming.

I am further tempted to simply say nothing, help no one, and keep all of my best work solely to myself

Already I said that I recognize you probably have good intents, and encouraged you in keeping sharing and helping.

So, yeah, good intents you have, and I aren't saying you should quit sharing.

So, in sort, keep sharing scripts, keep explaining and teaching scripting.

But yet you keep replying:

So, basically, I should quit sharing? K.

This is depressing.







I raised many very precise points*, all backed up by solid proof, expecting your explanations on these, yet you replies are:

I will just ignore you

This makes me sad.

*such as[list][*]about how GPL applied to bos instead of encouring sharing actually impede it, as proved by the sharing of bos before GPL, and Fang removing your GPL code from his mod to replace it with non-GPL one.
[*]about how writing the angles without the < > in the BOS makes zero difference in the COB
[*]about how COB use int and not float
[*]about how your angular units for Spring are wrong
[*]about how some of your files which you declared GPL cannot be, for two reasons.[list][*] They are from Cavedog, not from you.
[*]They are so simple they're out of scope for licensing.[/list]
[*]etc...[/list]

[AF]

Argh I dont think you should label yoruself as at the cutting edge of spring mod development, it riles up quit a few people and sounds somewhat arrogant.

[Argh]

1. I did not "steal Cavedog's .h". I rebuilt it, added documentation, cut things that don't work in Spring, and generally made it worth referring to for Spring, as opposed to OTA. Whether this qualifies as "original work" is not debatable, frankly.

2. You can insult my skills all you want, but that changes nothing, about what I have achieved here, and what I am going to do. Frankly, it just makes you look lame. If nobody thought what I was doing was important, then I would just be ignored

3. I do not care if GPL hysteria impedes the use of my code. It's not my fault that people are ignorant, and I'm not apologizing. Because the only other route, for me, is a restrictive standard EULA that tells you that you can't do anything with any of my work, period, and I'd rather give it away where possible. There's no middle ground that I find acceptable here, under most circumstances.


I'm sorry for you, and I don't know why you insist on attacking me and my motives whenever possible, even though I give out more secrets on a regular basis than just about anybody, and gave away the entire sourcecode of a game design just because I can. But I simply do not have time for you any longer, and will no longer respond to your posts. You are officially a non-person to me, which takes a lot more effort than you'd think. Good day, sir, and goodbye.