Complete Annihilation Beta 1 released!

[Boirunner]

You're an idiot, go away.

The second part of my post was a misunderstanding, I see now you meant grouping in FBI files no in the game. Sorry. Come on, I even prefixed it with "And I'm not sure if I understood you right, but if...".

Concerning the first part: Why don't you take Gundam, do some changes, and post in smoths thread saying you "fixed" the issues and have made it a much more fun game. It would be hilarious.

[Forboding Angel]

THere, edited. Happy Z? I am no longer calling him an idiot.

But on the other hand, he makes a wild assumption that I'm nothing but arrogant (and I'm incapable of micro remember?) without even taking a look. But no I'm the bad guy for calling him on it. That makes perfect sense Z.

Actually Z, he was the one that started throwing personal insults, whereas I simply called him an idiot.


And lets be honest, making a mod like KP isn't exactly rocket science. Neither is balancing 4 units.


BTW, may I point out that what is going on now is exactly the reason I said no to getting involved with making CA back when it started or shortly thereafter.

[Boirunner]

may I point out that what is going on now is exactly the reason I said no to getting involved with making CA back when it started or shortly thereafter.

Seriously, am I missing something here? You changed things in a mod you didn't make, and called it "fixing". I said that made you seem arrogant.

Where exactly is the horrible, horrible thing that you were dreading all along?

[CautionToTheWind]

Space-time curved around Forboding's ego, postponing Gundam's day in the sun by 4.000 years.

[Forboding Angel]

Seriously, am I missing something here? You changed things in a mod you didn't make, and called it "fixing". I said that made you seem arrogant.

No, you never actually said it, you just vaguely implied it. Why did you just say this stuff in the first place? At least then I would have understood what the hell you were on about.

I can see your point, it was a simple misuse of words. I apologize to the CA guys for that, but look at it from my point of view:

Imo, those things are currently broken, so using the word "Fixed" kinda makes sense. Doesn't make it right, but it was just a misstep. It would be nice if you would just let it go. I busted my ass going through somewhere around 100+ fbi's doing tedius crap. I doubt vey much that anyone else is really willing to do that. It's a completely mind-numbing experience.

BTW, speaking of broken stuff. I increased sumo and penetrator speed by .32 which is a very slight change for the most part, but it was too much, should have just stuck with .12 (would bring total speed up to maxvelocity=1.0;) like my instinct told me. The amount of whoopass those things give is quite disturbing.

At any rate, I will now go edit said offensive post so that no one's feelings get hurt anymore.

[Foxomaniac]

Woaaaaaaaaaaah!

Ahem ahem.

*fonzie voice*

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey!

*end*

I'll try out the mutator, host some games on teh autohost THEN pass teh judgement!11

But yeah, no metalz/energies from cons = absolute failure.

STOP TEH DRAMA!

[Forboding Angel]

STOP TEH DRAMA!

I'm trying fox, I really am. I was never intending to be offensive, but some people just read it that way. I'm only trying to help. I've been really excited about CA as you know, so I just wanted to make some suggestions. Might wanna go read the post where I put up the mutator as well, as I made a few notes about "the good, the bad, and the fugly".


I only removed metalmake from cons because I was afraid of spammability and it messing up the econ. I agree that it should be there, but I was just safeguarding (if you notice, the cons in FunTA are extremely spamable and the have a metalmake of .2, this was a design decision) <--- just trying to illustrate that I have nothing against cons making resources.

[Foxomaniac]

Rule #1 of stopping drama :

You do not respond to posts that attack you or anything - you just ignore em.

They don't like it?

They can go bang their heads in the wall.

tl;dr How to stop drama

From the book 'Wise Words of Internet Warrior'.

[Forboding Angel]

BTW, I just had a really neat idea...

What if all the mobile units or all the stationary buildings (both would prolly be a bit odd) had a storage value of metal and energy of say 10 or 20 ish.

In advance, I agree that fluctuating storage is not all that cool, but on the other hand, it might help newbies who don't understand what storage can do for them, and maybe it could help prevent stalling in early game settings.

I also agree that prudent use of resources is and should be a very important aspect of the game, however, something like this might have the side effect of helping out the gameplay in the long run.

Just an idea.

I also, had a really neat idea about armored (or maybe just the regular) mexes and how they could be set up to work as territory defenders (not good ones). Lemmie think it through a bit more and I'll post when I have something coherant(sp?).

[quantum]

Edited all unit movement (possibly one of the longest and most boring things you could possibly do in a mod, considering it involves opening and editing each and every mobile unit fbi file) so that unit grouping is more effective at lv1, and removed sluggish behavior in unit movement (speeds were not changed save flash/gator).

If you want to keep units together, alt-move them, they will go at the speed of the slowest.


I don't understand the logic behind the Flash/Gator speed changes. Flash speed went from 4.125 to 2.5, and gator from 3.3 to 2.5. This clearly doesn't make them raiders.

They are not assault either, with 300 HP for the Flash and 550 for the Gator, all for 140 and 150 metal.

Now that the Flash has the same speed as the Gator, isn't the Gator much better, with a superior weapon and almost double HP for only 10 additional metal?

The Slasher was accelerated from 1.75 to 2. That's a good change, imho, it's currently a bit slow for a skirmisher. I'll have to buff the Samson as well, though.

Also, now that nearly all the units have the same acceleration, Core has a huge buff. It used to trade maneuverability for top speed.

The Hammer was accelerated from 1.24 to 1.55 . It's artillery, other units should be able to catch up with it.And if it's that fast, why should you build Rockos?

HAKs can kill Arm LLTs while only losing half their health after the speed buff. They are supposed to be anti-swarm. If their are assault as well, why build Thuds?

Edited constructor costs, buildtimes and increased speeds. Reduced metalmake on con units to 0 (ask yourself, does it really make it fun when a constructor takes forever to build, is quite expensive, and why on earth does it make metal?)

The idea is that with Kbots, you start faster, since the kbot lab costs 300 metal, but then you expand slower, because of the Construction Kbot's low speed.

Now that the Construction Kbot goes as fast as a Flash, that balance is broken.

Also, how are you supposed to kill Constuction Kbots if they can run from flashes? Go Kbots to make AKs?

And how to reach enemy construction vehicles, now that they go as fast as AKs?

Build time is a resource, just like metal and energy. If you keep churning out military units or if you don't protect your cons, you'll end up excessing. Build time should not be that cheap.

Edited storage capacity of Energy and metal storage buildings.

Storage capacity and cost were both halved from BA values. This rewards players who control territory: capacity/area is halved. If you decide you don't want to build storage, forget about firing your Annihilators or reclaiming decent amounts of metal.

Metal makers have undergone a similar treatment.

Edited Slight speed increase for penetrator and sumo (they turn slow as all get out so you will definately not be running away with them). *Note* THis was not a good change because it was too much. Consider putting them at 1.0 maxvelocity (I set it to 1.2 <- too much)

I don't understand. You tripled the turnrate and multiplied by 15 the acceleration of the Penetrator, while leaving its speed at 3. Now it's, in practice, a 2500 HP gator with a laser that deals 6000 damage per shot.

The Sumo was already at 1.0 maxvelocity O.o

Fixed huge imbalance with rocko's and storms (storm rocket did 350 damage compared to the 157 of rocko, and only cost 30 metal and 40 energy more. Plus, the rockets had an aoe of 48 -> reduced to 10. Storm rocket damage reduced to 175)

You missed that the Storm reloads in twice the time and has a slower rocket.
The AoE is to make very near misses deal damage.

Edited all lv1 unit movement speeds (not by changing the actual speed of the unit... Simply changed the way they react when a movement order is given) to the point that grouping a wide variety of lv1 units of each type (kbot/vehicle) is actually possible now (before it was just... broken. IMO)

O.o

Edited Increased commander speeds (no comm rushing is not more feasible because of it, and if you actually play it you'll understand why)

This goes against the "Kbot means fast start, slow expansion" principle.

Lots of little small Edits.

Wrecks don't block units or weapons in your mutator. Solid corpses add depth, imho, and units like the Samson, Rocko or Clogger are balanced with that in mind.

I appreciate that you spent so much time on CA, and these are interesting changes, but the problem is that they have so many implications that the mod would have to be balanced from scratch again. If you have questions on the logic behind the stats, don't hesitate to ask!

[Forboding Angel]

Edited all unit movement (possibly one of the longest and most boring things you could possibly do in a mod, considering it involves opening and editing each and every mobile unit fbi file) so that unit grouping is more effective at lv1, and removed sluggish behavior in unit movement (speeds were not changed save flash/gator).

If you want to keep units together, alt-move them, they will go at the speed of the slowest.


I don't understand the logic behind the Flash/Gator speed changes. Flash speed went from 4.125 to 2.5, and gator from 3.3 to 2.5. This clearly doesn't make them raiders.

They are not assault either, with 300 HP for the Flash and 550 for the Gator, all for 140 and 150 metal.

Now that the Flash has the same speed as the Gator, isn't the Gator much better, with a superior weapon and almost double HP for only 10 additional metal?

The Slasher was accelerated from 1.75 to 2. That's a good change, imho, it's currently a bit slow for a skirmisher. I'll have to buff the Samson as well, though.

Also, now that nearly all the units have the same acceleration, Core has a huge buff. It used to trade maneuverability for top speed.

The Hammer was accelerated from 1.24 to 1.55 . It's artillery, other units should be able to catch up with it.And if it's that fast, why should you build Rockos?

HAKs can kill Arm LLTs while only losing half their health after the speed buff. They are supposed to be anti-swarm. If their are assault as well, why build Thuds?

-------

The problem is, currently none of the lv1 assault units stick together in a group. Look, alt moves are nice, but it keeps them in a set formation, and line moves are much better. I understand what you are saying, but I kinda did this thinking that the imbala caused by doing that would be fixed in the way of weapon strength, etc. Using line moves is generally the best course of action because you maximize your firepower.

Typically, you would use the flash and the stumpy, or the gheytor and the raider in tandem. ATM in beta 1 that is essentially impossible.

Also, this is a huge bone I have to pick...

Look, if you wanna use maneuverability as a trade off that's fine, BUT don't do it with the acceleration and braking rates! Use the turnrate tag for that. When a unit is turning in spring, it accels and brakes half a gazillion times before it actually gets going, so it actually turns slower than the turnrate would let you believe. Low accel and brake rates also attribute to the unit being sluggish.

Edited constructor costs, buildtimes and increased speeds. Reduced metalmake on con units to 0 (ask yourself, does it really make it fun when a constructor takes forever to build, is quite expensive, and why on earth does it make metal?)

The idea is that with Kbots, you start faster, since the kbot lab costs 300 metal, but then you expand slower, because of the Construction Kbot's low speed.

Now that the Construction Kbot goes as fast as a Flash, that balance is broken.

Also, how are you supposed to kill Constuction Kbots if they can run from flashes? Go Kbots to make AKs?

And how to reach enemy construction vehicles, now that they go as fast as AKs?

Build time is a resource, just like metal and energy. If you keep churning out military units or if you don't protect your cons, you'll end up excessing. Build time should not be that cheap.

------

Look, excessing buildtimes on cons just makes the gameplay slower. It also makes it much more frustrating in the early game, cause god forbid you don't have enough cons in the early game. I made them really fast to illustrate a point, nothing more (but they do need speed increases, as a con moving at 1.2 speeds just makes you wanna dig your eyes out with a spoon), Most of what I did was with the understanding that tweaking would need to be done.

Edited storage capacity of Energy and metal storage buildings.

Storage capacity and cost were both halved from BA values. This rewards players who control territory: capacity/area is halved. If you decide you don't want to build storage, forget about firing your Annihilators or reclaiming decent amounts of metal.

Metal makers have undergone a similar treatment.

--------

I understand that, but couldn't you just make the storage process not a big deal instead of a huge time waster? IMO there really isn't a good reason to make the player have to build farms of storage buildings, just so he can store a decent amount of metal and energy.

Edited Slight speed increase for penetrator and sumo (they turn slow as all get out so you will definately not be running away with them). *Note* THis was not a good change because it was too much. Consider putting them at 1.0 maxvelocity (I set it to 1.2 <- too much)

I don't understand. You tripled the turnrate and multiplied by 15 the acceleration of the Penetrator, while leaving its speed at 3. Now it's, in practice, a 2500 HP gator with a laser that deals 6000 damage per shot.

The Sumo was already at 1.0 maxvelocity O.o

-------

The penetrator was a typo, my bad. A big ass typo at that. I did not mean to adjust turnrate at all, dunno how the heck I accidentally did that. Sorry bout that. I do however think that the penetrator should move at max velocity 1 previously .88 I think?).

Fixed huge imbalance with rocko's and storms (storm rocket did 350 damage compared to the 157 of rocko, and only cost 30 metal and 40 energy more. Plus, the rockets had an aoe of 48 -> reduced to 10. Storm rocket damage reduced to 175)

You missed that the Storm reloads in twice the time and has a slower rocket.
The AoE is to make very near misses deal damage.

-------

48 aoe is really large. I'm not sure you realize how big it really is, multiply by 15 storms and you get the idea. I concede that I may have misread the weapon info for the storm and rocko, my mistake. You should realize that i was trying to do things quickly.

Edited all lv1 unit movement speeds (not by changing the actual speed of the unit... Simply changed the way they react when a movement order is given) to the point that grouping a wide variety of lv1 units of each type (kbot/vehicle) is actually possible now (before it was just... broken. IMO)

O.o

-------

grrr, meant lv2

Edited Increased commander speeds (no comm rushing is not more feasible because of it, and if you actually play it you'll understand why)

This goes against the "Kbot means fast start, slow expansion" principle.

----------

It also lends itself to a very annoying beginning game, where the comm is very slow and lumbering. It may look neat, but it's quite irritating.

Lots of little small Edits.

Wrecks don't block units or weapons in your mutator. Solid corpses add depth, imho, and units like the Samson, Rocko or Clogger are balanced with that in mind.

I appreciate that you spent so much time on CA, and these are interesting changes, but the problem is that they have so many implications that the mod would have to be balanced from scratch again. If you have questions on the logic behind the stats, don't hesitate to ask!

-------

Non blocking wreckage becomes a huge good gameplay factor in mid to late game, especially on chokepointed maps. In combination with extremely low acceleration rates it bogs the gameplay in a huge fight to nearly a standstill. Also, with that many feature lying around and messing with pathing is also causes the actual game to slow down bigtime, cause springs pathing starts going all kinds of wonky.




Sorry about the uber crappy quoting method, couldn't figure out how to do it decent as I'm using vnc and doing this from my home computer through vnc (which is the reason letters in my words are occasionally missing).

Also, would you kind of nutshell for me, what the roles of lv1 kbot/veh and lv2 kbot/veh are intended? You alluded to it in your release posts, but if I had had a more clear definition and the changes wouldn't have been so wonky. I didn't intend this thing to be just extracted over the existing files on svn. But I did make it easy to set up by doing the mutator thingy, so you can easily just edit my changes and formulate them to fit your needs and dump with little hassle.

BTW, once I have a clearer idea of your final endgame goal, it'll be easier to suggest truly good changes. As it is, I was kinda just shooting from the dark. However, I'm amazed that you actually opened it up and took close looks at the actual fbis (many/most/all of them it seems). I'm really happy that you did that and in the future I will refrain from cartoonishly animating numbers just so that the point is visible from a glance. I honestly didn't think you would really look into it which is why some of the stuff was a bit excessive.

Anyway, thanks

BTW, please please please, for my sake, will you increase acceleration rates on the units and define maneuverability with the turnrate tag? THis will accomplish what you want while keeping the nutsi from being sluggish.

Btw, please don't use accel rates below 0.2 on amphibious units, because like the [poison arrow. Accel rate of .077. At that rate if you tell it to turn another direction in the water (god forbid at a right angle) it will take forever to hit it's max speed again. You can pretty much figure that if a unit goes underwater, it's movement stats will be halved.

Thanks!

[Forboding Angel]

Ok, well...

After reading a recent pm. I will not be suggesting things for CA any more (it's probably just better that way imo). I've had a lot of hope for this mod, and I still do for that matter. An d I think that in the end all things will be sorted out.

Quantum, you have achieved something in spring that I had hoped for for 2 years. Imo, you are are really good guy (and so is fox), and tbh I'm amazed that someone finally had the nuts enough to do for a TA mod what you guys have done.

Anyway, tally ho, and I'll be looking forward to newer releases

[1v0ry_k1ng]

the speed changes are indeed dumb, ALT CLICK, ALT CLICK PEOPLE

[Nixa]

If only I could be botherd playing spring :)

[jackalope]

wtf gentleman

[Peet]

Seriously, am I missing something here? You changed things in a mod you didn't make, and called it "fixing".

So uh...how many mods around here are based on original content...

[jackalope]

Seriously, am I missing something here? You changed things in a mod you didn't make, and called it "fixing".

So uh...how many mods around here are based on original content...

Gundam, EE, Nanoblobz. I guess you don't know much about GPL.

[Peet]

I guess you need to lurk moar, as I have a mod of my own that is almost entirely original content.

*nük't*

[Snipawolf]

Sometimes you gotta admire the modder's of these TA based mods...

Giving in to the whims of several hundred people and obtaining the perfect balance for 250+ units or so...

Have fun ^^

[zwzsg]

So uh...how many mods around here are based on original content...

Let's see: Gundam, 1944, SWS, KP, Epic Legion, Simbase, TA2050, Nanoblobz, Eternal Struggle, Expand and Exterminate, CvC.... about a dozen I'd say.