Complete Annihilation Beta 1 released!

lale · Post by **lale** » 22 May 2007, 13:02

The "gamplay tip" loading screens are a very very
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*lale's keyboard "i" key breaks down* ^_^
veri veri
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GOOD and clever idea.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 22 May 2007, 14:24

Foxomaniac wrote:
Also this mod obviously plays like crap. I've never played it but the screenshots look good so the gameplay must suck because no human or team could possibly balance a mod while still making it look good.

that was sarcasm fox.

MR.D · Post by **MR.D** » 22 May 2007, 14:40

Well its not without the need of work, but its in decent shape for a good game to happen.

Balance is not easily acomplished in any game, BA does a fair job, but thats is just an opinion, Ba itself is not without problems either.

Foxomaniac · Post by **Foxomaniac** » 22 May 2007, 15:51

smoth wrote:
Foxomaniac wrote:
Also this mod obviously plays like crap. I've never played it but the screenshots look good so the gameplay must suck because no human or team could possibly balance a mod while still making it look good.

that was sarcasm fox.

Oh don't worry, my sarcasm detector never malfunctioned!

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 22 May 2007, 17:35

the gameplay tips on loadscreens first appeared in EE iirc

Foxomaniac · Post by **Foxomaniac** » 22 May 2007, 17:46

Yup, although they were dry of humor.

Was my idea to make "educashunal loadskreens with lolfactor inclusion"!

Machio turned the idea into a reallliiiittyyy

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 24 May 2007, 06:17

Ok, I've done a LOT of work with CA so far, and I've managed to make the gameplay much more fun.

Here is a rundown of what I have done:

Edited all unit movement (possibly one of the longest and most boring things you could possibly do in a mod, considering it involves opening and editing each and every mobile unit fbi file) so that unit grouping is more effective at lv1, and removed sluggish behavior in unit movement (speeds were not changed save flash/gator).

Edited constructor costs, buildtimes and increased speeds. Reduced metalmake on con units to 0 (ask yourself, does it really make it fun when a constructor takes forever to build, is quite expensive, and why on earth does it make metal?)

Edited storage capacity of Energy and metal storage buildings.

Edited Slight speed increase for penetrator and sumo (they turn slow as all get out so you will definately not be running away with them). *Note* THis was not a good change because it was too much. Consider putting them at 1.0 maxvelocity (I set it to 1.2 <- too much)

Fixed huge imbalance with rocko's and storms (storm rocket did 350 damage compared to the 157 of rocko, and only cost 30 metal and 40 energy more. Plus, the rockets had an aoe of 48 -> reduced to 10. Storm rocket damage reduced to 175)

Edited all lv1 unit movement speeds (not by changing the actual speed of the unit... Simply changed the way they react when a movement order is given) to the point that grouping a wide variety of lv1 units of each type (kbot/vehicle) is actually possible now (before it was just... broken. IMO)

Edited Increased commander speeds (no comm rushing is not more feasable because of it, and if you actually play it you'll understand why)

Lots of little small Edits.

I have set this up in mutator form. As long as you have the CA beta just drop this file in your mods folder and it will show up in the mods list.
This mutator greatly enhances gameplay and makes the CA experience much more enjoyable.

I spent about 6 hours straight working on this, and considering the amount of work done, it would be nice to be taken seriously. I have really high hopes for CA, but I was actually irritated enough with certain things in beta 1 that I actually spent the time to do this. Quantum, Fox, let me know if you want more in depth details.

Edit: Made a small mistake, file updated.

Lolsquad_Steven · Post by **Lolsquad_Steven** » 24 May 2007, 08:59

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 24 May 2007, 09:04

They are good changes. Just try it. :)

Of course they would need to be tweaked a bit most likely, but the point stands.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 24 May 2007, 09:33

I'm behind Forb on this one, with the except of the point z raised below this post. Coming back from the brink is one of my fav. activities in TA based games. Haven't taken CA to the public sandbox recently, of course, but I've done a few private checks.

zwzsg · Post by **zwzsg** » 24 May 2007, 09:33

Reduced metalmake on con units to 0 (ask yourself, does it really make it fun when a constructor takes forever to build, is quite expensive, and why on earth does it make metal?)

I am against this change. All units that can build, factories or cons, should always have a tiny metalmake and energymake, and a tiny M & E storage. Not enough to actually matters when you have a normal economy running, just enough that when you are left with nothing but a cons (or nothing than a fac), you still have the theorical possibility of rebuilding back. Yes, in a 1v1, if you have nothing but a cons, you'll lose anyway. However:
- In team game, if you got rushed and a lost your base and only a cons managed to flee before base was obliterated, you might be able to take refuge inside an ally base and rebuild from there. Would take a long time to catch up, but it's doable. And having to ask your allies for a mexx, a solar, etc... is very unconvenient, your ally are probably to busy playing to notice your plea, or not caring enough, or not aware or what you exactly need etc...
- In 1v1, even if you can't win, it's much fun to keep on pretending to try till the end.

Oh, and this is based on actual game experience. Many times in TA, I was obliterated and left with only a cons kbot or a cons veh, if not less, but because in TA every cons produce a little M and E, I was able to remake a mexx, a solar, a factory, losing the factory again, start toe remake one further, shortly interrupt the construction to get some M from wreck, etc... While it didn't change my ultimate fate, it made the game entertaining up to the end. Without that, I would need to either alt-tab out or self D, both giving my opponent an unsatisfactory ending.

Once in EE I didn't survive an early rush, and was left with only a cons. My two other allies did fine, so I could get protection for a while. However, with 0 storage and 0 ress production, it was plain impossible to rebuild, even though I had ample time to, until an ally gave me a couple stuff.

Considering CA goal is to maximise fun, cons tiny E&M make&store must be kept.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 24 May 2007, 10:27

Ok, but due to decreased con cost it would have to be very very small. On the level of about 0.05 every tick, meaning you would need 20 cons to make a full +1 metal.

It may seem too small, but imagine if you set one factory building nothing but cons all game is they were giving 0.2 like they were originally.

I used to do that in AA, and it worked like a charm. I would end up with about 150 cons and they supplimented my econ big time.

SO yeah, I agree miniscule would be fine, I was only being safe

Keep in mind that I'm not affiliated with the process of making CA in any way, however, there are some things that should be nipped in the bud before it becomes too late and that's "Just the way it is" with no decent explanation behind it. A mutator was the easiest way to illistrate points.

Also, one undocumented change that I did do was increase the storage buildings. 4k for metal storage and 6 k for energy storage.

Why you ask? Because when metal storage holds a whole 750 metal, it really isn't worth your time. That was one of my most hated things about ota (keep in mind that I loved ota, but some of the things were just dumb). The storage buildings were worthless.

Why is it that you should have to build farms of storage just to get the capacity up to something decent? It's unnecessary tedium and it's boring. There is nothing there that makes the gameplay experience better, it simply attributes to bogging it down.

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 24 May 2007, 10:48

Zwzsg EE != TA dont go citing that when arguing for M production from con bots, I did that intentionally because I didnt want people to be able to recover from well prosecuted attacks.. games over there start a new one..

I generally dont see the point of having a miniscule amount of metal or energy.. storage I can see, but the other stuff not so much, it can get out of hand if not done right, though I suppose its not too bad.. its a decision on the designer, do you want easy comebacks, or not..

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 24 May 2007, 10:59

Well, it isn't an easy comeback, even at the norm. As long as they produce something, I'm willing to sit on my hands, but I must note that even now, coming back is tedious and difficult. Nevermind that with a little ingenuity, a load of luck and some careful build order work, you can make it to T2 again from a T1 constructor in twenty minutes.

0.05 a tick, however, is terribly low. How long to a wind maker? How long to a second? Third? Your Metal Maker? Four times the time to each step is twice the amount which the designers could fairly request of the player. 0.075 or 0.1 - think about it.

If I recall, I brought up the lack of resource production on E&E constructors a very long time ago. Still have the scars to prove it, I dare say. E&E, however, is a very different game - I believe the lack of resource production there helps streamline a quick and effective game model, while TA-based games are more about the long and protracted conflict for me.

The better storage makes my heart beat quicker.

zwzsg · Post by **zwzsg** » 24 May 2007, 11:19

Fanger, it doesn't make people able to recover, nor does it make come back easy. All it do is let losers have something to toy around between the end and the very end.

Boirunner · Post by **Boirunner** » 24 May 2007, 11:56

Forboding Angel wrote:[...] I've managed to make the gameplay much more fun. [...] Fixed all unit movement [...] Fixed constructor costs, buildtimes and increased speeds. [...] Fixed huge imbalance [...] Fixed all [...] it was just... broken [...] Lots of little small fixes. [...] This mutator greatly enhances gameplay and makes the CA experience much more enjoyable.

FA, not only do I disagree with almost all of your points, but you also you seem really arrogant about them. Bugs can be fixed, not balance decisions.

And I'm not sure if I understood you right, but if you changed movement speeds so everything moves at similar speeds because you suck at micro and can't group them otherwise... well that's the dumbest thing I've heard all morning.

MR.D · Post by **MR.D** » 24 May 2007, 12:33

No shit, many times during a team game I've been overrun or bombed and left with only a con or 2 to recover with.

And a good # of times I've been able to rebuild to at least assist my teamates with the small ammount of units I could afford, and often times it made the difference and I was able to equalise out the enemy long enough for my team to pull through.

Removing the ability to recover from a catastrophic loss is what makes team games fun and stripping it away from the gameplay is a very foul move, and thats not likely to pass as "ok" amongst people that might otherwise play the mod.

There should always be the chance for recovery, and as it was, it worked out fine.

You may see this as a small change, but in reality, it is one of the founding parts of gameplay that made TA great to begin with.

You're stripping away one of the best parts of the game right there.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 24 May 2007, 15:18

Boirunner wrote: FA, not only do I disagree with almost all of your points, but you also you seem really arrogant about them. Bugs can be fixed, not balance decisions.

And I'm not sure if I understood you right, but if you changed movement speeds so everything moves at similar speeds because you suck at micro and can't group them otherwise... well that's the dumbest thing I've heard all morning.

Wow,

if you took the time to look in a few uf the unit fbi's you would understand.

Actually The only unit speeds I changed were:
Flash/gatro
Penetrator/sumo (Very very small change)

Nothing I did affects balance. Maybe you should try looking next time.
Go away.

EDIT:
You know boirunner, it's people like you that kept AA from having any of the ideas I suggested so long ago. All of which are in BA BTW. I know a thing or two about balancing. Besides, I'm not affiliated with the design of CA, so now all you have to do is convince Quantum not to listen. And considering that you didn't even check out the mutator with said suggestions, it should be easy for you.

zwzsg · Post by **zwzsg** » 24 May 2007, 15:34

Edit: Ok, no more flaming then.

KingRaptor · Post by **KingRaptor** » 24 May 2007, 15:42

There. Isn't that much better?

Spring RTS Engine

Complete Annihilation Beta 1 released!