EE version 0.173 Final (no more stuffs)
Moderator: Moderators
The L2 URC construction mech could use more distinct con-colouring. While I probably play at a further zoom than I should, there was another unit with rounded pods like the L2 URC con (can't remember which) that made it hard to distinguish. I kept finding them accidentally brought within my combat teams.
Still, I'm not the most experienced EE player, so I don't know if I'm just being silly.
Still, I'm not the most experienced EE player, so I don't know if I'm just being silly.
Zomygosh Double Post:
It seems to me that over the last couple of weeks a bunch of people have come out of the woodwork to tell me they dont like the HUBs and or some other aspect of the current EE. If you cant understand how the HUBs work that is not my problem, nor is it the mods problem. The HUBs are not some arbitrary stopgap to slow down the construction of a factory or some other nonsense, they are both a balancing tool and a method of increased automation. Some people apparently dont realize how the HUBs are helpful, or what they allow and or do, so for those of you who dont Ill outline this again..
1.HUBs allow decreased factory cost, with the HUB system I can make the actual production factories much much cheaper than they orginially were in the older version of EE, this allows my intent of making more factories a better idea than more con bots. I dont like the concept of conassisting, the game this EE was inspired by did not do that, instead you had massive numbers of factories churning out units, I like this better, and so the HUBs allow this. As to why I could not simply reduce factory cost, well lets think about that quickly, If I reduce factory cost then Tech 2, and Tech 3 become much much more accessible and tech rushing can be done. This will cause an imbalance in the game. Now because I cannot do some sort of Research system, or upgrade system or something of this nature, I have little else to do in order to make teching up cost X, but additional factories cost Y, because in the system we have teching up can only be accomplished by a new construction building. So we have HUBs, HUBs constitute the "Cost" of teching up yet allow me to make extra factories accessible.
2. HUBs by virtue of the first point also allow variation in factory, before you had to pay a bunch of resources for EACH factory, this meant that if you wanted to go AIR, or build a stealth factory you were penalized by resources. This was evidenced by the severe lack of use that some of these tech levels saw in older versions of EE. Currently I see use of all variations of tech, from stealth to all levels of AIR. The HUBs allow this, you can build both a ground and air factory and not destroy your econ, and do it with little micro. In the last version 0.163 lvl 1 aircraft were rarely used, and stealth units almost never used.. this was due to the fact that in order to access these units you had to pay for another factory which had to be costly or else teching would have been screwed up. This meant it was not cost effective unless I made those units very powerful which I didnt want to do. So the HUBs allow those units to be on a normal balance set and still see use by being very accessable but without screwing techups.
3. HUBs allow more automation by allowing you to free up constructors. True before hand you had one less click to do to get that first factory up, and perhaps on a small map or in a tight game this makes some sort of difference. EE was never intended for small engagments so this doesnt bother me. You have to think beyond this first 3 click phase and look at the long run management. Once the HUB is set up you can easily que up a bunch of buildings while you control your constructors to expand and que up your factories for production. This allows you to pay attention to early expansion better by allowing you to automate home base production. While you initially spend more clicks you free them up by being able to que up buildings and then follow your con, or scout units assured that your base is constructing itself.
That explains why, now let me address 2 issues I have heard the most from complainers..
-The HUBs do cause you to centralize your production, well yes, but I dont see why this is an issue, yes it makes it vulnerable, but then why shouldnt it be.. This is a feature not a bug, learn to adapt to it, much like URC having Bots, and GD having better Artillery, in EE bases are forced to be centralized and have to be guarded against penetration, on the one hand its easier to defend a small perimeter, on the other hand its all cluster in one spot in the event of a serious long range attack. There are strengths and weaknesses.. Learn to adapt to them..
-The HUBs do prevent you from building factories willy nilly all over the map, but then again do they? A common misconception is that the HUB + Factory costs more than a Factory did in 0.163, THIS IS NOT THE CASE. The HUB costs 70% of a .163 factory and the actual factory 30%. So you are no more able to spam factories in .173, than .163 this is all in your mind. Secondly so you have to maintain a support line to your front line, so what, learn to adapt to the situation, again this is a feature that you must incorporate into your thinking much like the manners in which the factions function. You cannot make a factory anywhere, but Neither can your opponent, so use this to your advantage..
It seems to me that over the last couple of weeks a bunch of people have come out of the woodwork to tell me they dont like the HUBs and or some other aspect of the current EE. If you cant understand how the HUBs work that is not my problem, nor is it the mods problem. The HUBs are not some arbitrary stopgap to slow down the construction of a factory or some other nonsense, they are both a balancing tool and a method of increased automation. Some people apparently dont realize how the HUBs are helpful, or what they allow and or do, so for those of you who dont Ill outline this again..
1.HUBs allow decreased factory cost, with the HUB system I can make the actual production factories much much cheaper than they orginially were in the older version of EE, this allows my intent of making more factories a better idea than more con bots. I dont like the concept of conassisting, the game this EE was inspired by did not do that, instead you had massive numbers of factories churning out units, I like this better, and so the HUBs allow this. As to why I could not simply reduce factory cost, well lets think about that quickly, If I reduce factory cost then Tech 2, and Tech 3 become much much more accessible and tech rushing can be done. This will cause an imbalance in the game. Now because I cannot do some sort of Research system, or upgrade system or something of this nature, I have little else to do in order to make teching up cost X, but additional factories cost Y, because in the system we have teching up can only be accomplished by a new construction building. So we have HUBs, HUBs constitute the "Cost" of teching up yet allow me to make extra factories accessible.
2. HUBs by virtue of the first point also allow variation in factory, before you had to pay a bunch of resources for EACH factory, this meant that if you wanted to go AIR, or build a stealth factory you were penalized by resources. This was evidenced by the severe lack of use that some of these tech levels saw in older versions of EE. Currently I see use of all variations of tech, from stealth to all levels of AIR. The HUBs allow this, you can build both a ground and air factory and not destroy your econ, and do it with little micro. In the last version 0.163 lvl 1 aircraft were rarely used, and stealth units almost never used.. this was due to the fact that in order to access these units you had to pay for another factory which had to be costly or else teching would have been screwed up. This meant it was not cost effective unless I made those units very powerful which I didnt want to do. So the HUBs allow those units to be on a normal balance set and still see use by being very accessable but without screwing techups.
3. HUBs allow more automation by allowing you to free up constructors. True before hand you had one less click to do to get that first factory up, and perhaps on a small map or in a tight game this makes some sort of difference. EE was never intended for small engagments so this doesnt bother me. You have to think beyond this first 3 click phase and look at the long run management. Once the HUB is set up you can easily que up a bunch of buildings while you control your constructors to expand and que up your factories for production. This allows you to pay attention to early expansion better by allowing you to automate home base production. While you initially spend more clicks you free them up by being able to que up buildings and then follow your con, or scout units assured that your base is constructing itself.
That explains why, now let me address 2 issues I have heard the most from complainers..
-The HUBs do cause you to centralize your production, well yes, but I dont see why this is an issue, yes it makes it vulnerable, but then why shouldnt it be.. This is a feature not a bug, learn to adapt to it, much like URC having Bots, and GD having better Artillery, in EE bases are forced to be centralized and have to be guarded against penetration, on the one hand its easier to defend a small perimeter, on the other hand its all cluster in one spot in the event of a serious long range attack. There are strengths and weaknesses.. Learn to adapt to them..
-The HUBs do prevent you from building factories willy nilly all over the map, but then again do they? A common misconception is that the HUB + Factory costs more than a Factory did in 0.163, THIS IS NOT THE CASE. The HUB costs 70% of a .163 factory and the actual factory 30%. So you are no more able to spam factories in .173, than .163 this is all in your mind. Secondly so you have to maintain a support line to your front line, so what, learn to adapt to the situation, again this is a feature that you must incorporate into your thinking much like the manners in which the factions function. You cannot make a factory anywhere, but Neither can your opponent, so use this to your advantage..
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1v0ry_k1ng
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
As someone who actually understands the logic of the hubs (a single, fixed entry cost to get into the next production level, after which factories are cheap so you can have multiple plants instead of having to choose whether you want to get bots/tanks/air for your next level like in TA)
I have to say I love Hubs.
I have to say I love Hubs.
I think hubs are a well-designed and well thought out solution to the problem of creating non-factory-based tech levels in a ta-like game. The AI thing is a pain (At least till someone makes a good NTai config!) but the pros of the unique game design outweigh this.
However, I am curious... once the LUA scripting to allow research upgrades is tested and working well in the engine, would you then consider eliminating hubs, and having research costs instead?
However, I am curious... once the LUA scripting to allow research upgrades is tested and working well in the engine, would you then consider eliminating hubs, and having research costs instead?
Such a change would nuke AIs in an irreversable way.
Lua based game mechanics such as upgrades are hopelessly beyond the reach of AIs because no support has been implemented for AIs to determine or even issue such commands or even send data back and forth of the most primitive kind.
Whatsmore future support is not on the radar. It seems that single player support for lua is very low on the list of priorities and there's nothing we can do about it but be forced to make the choice between lua or skirmish AIs atm.
The whole anti hub thing and the confusion that arises from it can be made easier using lua UI widgets to replace the build menu with something more appropriate, such as windows explorer style tiles rather than blocks of thumbnails with no labels.
Lua based game mechanics such as upgrades are hopelessly beyond the reach of AIs because no support has been implemented for AIs to determine or even issue such commands or even send data back and forth of the most primitive kind.
Whatsmore future support is not on the radar. It seems that single player support for lua is very low on the list of priorities and there's nothing we can do about it but be forced to make the choice between lua or skirmish AIs atm.
The whole anti hub thing and the confusion that arises from it can be made easier using lua UI widgets to replace the build menu with something more appropriate, such as windows explorer style tiles rather than blocks of thumbnails with no labels.
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1v0ry_k1ng
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
It's cheaper pintle, it also causes you a risk, cause the last thing you want is someone to see your nuke silo.
THe point is, you can cheaply build up to 9 superweapon things in one spot. THe risk is the fact that they are in one spot. There is actually a really good reason for them. Besides, being able to put up extra silos for not much cost is very nice.
THe point is, you can cheaply build up to 9 superweapon things in one spot. THe risk is the fact that they are in one spot. There is actually a really good reason for them. Besides, being able to put up extra silos for not much cost is very nice.