The above was my initial statement, my subsequent posts have been to try and clarify my reason for believing this. If you dont like the dynamic or balance of other mods, please dont take it out on me.pintle wrote:Shallows slow movement speed= more efficient porcing.
.:New Map:. EE-DeltaGlade.sd7
Moderator: Moderators
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Well what I'm saying is that it's a flaw with the mods, not the map.
AA/BA/WhatthehelleverA
is it's own worst enemy in the fact that it severly limits itself artificially. Some of us have actually considered fixing it, but when it all comes down to it...
It's ugly
It's not your own work, so it really isn't yours when you're all said and done
It's ugly
There a myriads of other things to fix as well.
TA mods need a REAL modder working on them. I have some hope for what fox and co is doing, but for the most part I doubt they have the experience needed and the necessary knowhow to unfuck TA mods in spring (I would love it if I am wrong though, and I sincerely hope I am).
AA/BA/WhatthehelleverA
is it's own worst enemy in the fact that it severly limits itself artificially. Some of us have actually considered fixing it, but when it all comes down to it...
It's ugly
It's not your own work, so it really isn't yours when you're all said and done
It's ugly
There a myriads of other things to fix as well.
TA mods need a REAL modder working on them. I have some hope for what fox and co is doing, but for the most part I doubt they have the experience needed and the necessary knowhow to unfuck TA mods in spring (I would love it if I am wrong though, and I sincerely hope I am).
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
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- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one.Forboding Angel wrote:Pintle, did you listen to what smoth and other said?
Try playing BOTA on this map, you';ll be in for a bit of an awakening.
See the reason maps like this work so well for EE is the fact of weapons range. Generally by the time the units are in the water they are in range of the defences, not to mention that plopping a few arty units on the other shore will do wonders for clearing the way.
TA "Modders" need to get their heads out of the sand, and realize that in a 3d engine a unit that can shoot all of 6 feet == fail. Seriously dude, look at the size of a thud, now look at it's range. Doesn't that make you kinda go huh?
I know the ranges are silly, but I've always found TA's short-ranged units to be something I miss in other mods. Long ranges look more realistic, but they mean that you have to zoom really far out in order to properly command the battle. Is it any wonder that EE is the mod of "ZOMG, I KAN'T TELL TEH UNITS APART!!!111"?
Different strokes for different folks - some of us think TA's shorter weapon ranges are an asset, not a flaw. Making everything long-ranged sacrifices gameplay for realism - realistic weapon ranges would mean zooming out to Supcom-style "Icons for everything" gameplay.
Umm, if that comment was directed at me: it's FA's map, and HE's the one who brought up how TA-based mod ranges are (in his opinion, which I disagree with) too short.j5mello wrote:good god shutup about the ranges people... ITS GOT F***ING EE IN THE DAMN NAME CLEARLY THE MAP IS MEANT FOR EE AND YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS?!?!?!!?
gameplay might suffer in TA based (or other) mods with shorter ranges.
OH NOES!!! is it really hard to grasp this concept?!?
Yes, this is an EE map, and should be played primarily with EE. But if FA's going to complain about short ranges, I'm going to disagree.
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LathanStanley
- Posts: 1429
- Joined: 20 Jun 2005, 05:16
actually pixtl, I brought up the ranges.
and for those of us who have played a few games of EE the units are not that hard. So I wouldn't say that about EE.
TA's ranges are short because you played on a small screen with low resolution and it also played 1/10th too slow. I used to always play TA on 10X speed. However, if you played on 1X you can actually move units out of fire range.
anyway, the point was that people jump up and scream EVERY time something does not play a TA:S mod well. However, the map was intended for EE. As someone working on a not TA:S mod I get tired of hearing TA players complain when a map could POSSIBLY play poorly for TA.
and for those of us who have played a few games of EE the units are not that hard. So I wouldn't say that about EE.
TA's ranges are short because you played on a small screen with low resolution and it also played 1/10th too slow. I used to always play TA on 10X speed. However, if you played on 1X you can actually move units out of fire range.
anyway, the point was that people jump up and scream EVERY time something does not play a TA:S mod well. However, the map was intended for EE. As someone working on a not TA:S mod I get tired of hearing TA players complain when a map could POSSIBLY play poorly for TA.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
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- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Pxtl, I agree with diff strokes diff folks so lets just get that straight.Pxtl wrote: I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one.
I know the ranges are silly, but I've always found TA's short-ranged units to be something I miss in other mods. Long ranges look more realistic, but they mean that you have to zoom really far out in order to properly command the battle. Is it any wonder that EE is the mod of "ZOMG, I KAN'T TELL TEH UNITS APART!!!111"?
Different strokes for different folks - some of us think TA's shorter weapon ranges are an asset, not a flaw. Making everything long-ranged sacrifices gameplay for realism - realistic weapon ranges would mean zooming out to Supcom-style "Icons for everything" gameplay.
Have you ever tried TA with higher ranges? If you will remember, ota had a max viewarea of something like 640x480-800x600 (remember to take into account the rather large-nontransparent gui) which is a damn good reason to have short ranges, however in spring we do not have that artificial limitation.
Pxtl, you really should try bota, If you're a fan of vanilla ota:cc (of which I am) I can almost promise that you'll like it a lot.
I wasn't complaining about the ranges. I was complaining about the fact that ta mods for spring are very farked (ask any REAL modder and they will tell you this). You know in many respects this is probably why caydr did so well with AA. Caydr was not a REAL modder, but he did have some talent whereas his biggest downfall was that he made really bad decisions most of the time.
What I am complaining about is the fact that none of these wannabe modder will take the time to unfuck TA mods for spring. I'm talking about the basics. For example, the poison arrow in BA has an acceleration rate of .007 which means that it will take a week to reach it's max velocity. There is a lot more to this than acceleration and speeds, that's just the tip of the iceberg. However, since we're on speeds and whatnot... You have units in TA mods with a max acceleration of somehting like 12 (which is about as fast as an EE bullet in spring <- facetious) and acceleration and brakerates that are extremely low. What that basically means is that a unit spends all it's time accelerating, never reaching it's max speed until it gets a new order, spends a lot of time braking, then restartes the cycle all over again. The result is a very sluggish unit that takes a while to get started.
There are TONS of problems with the units in TA mods for spring, not to mention the scripting problems *shudder*.
I somewhat recently spent some time working with unit speeds and accelerations/brakerates in BA, the problem was, the units were set up so poorly in their original form, that there was no real way to tell what their maximum speed should be (without spending a heck of a lot of time on it). That was only one of the problems I encountered. SO because I was in a hurry I used the same accel for everything (0.2 before you ask) and readjusted the speeds for the units to real values. The result was that obviously most of them needed speed tweaking, I expected that, but the biggest result was the fact that the units were no longer sluggish. For example, I give a raider an order to turn 90 degrees left and OMG, it didn't take forever to complete to movement. No, it's speed and acceleration was not perfect by any means, but my main goal was accomplished (removing sluggishness from unit movement).
I decided to show what I had done to someone on the BA team bandwagon, and suggest unit improvements (which is one hell of a huge task, believe me) for the better of the mod as a whole.
The question which I have committed to memory...
"So you made all the units move like the units in EE?"
At this point I realized that you can't fix stupid.
No, the attempt was to make the units responsive to orders LIKE EVERY OTHER RTS OUT THERE! Even units in OTA were not as sluggish as the units in Spring ta mods are!
Meh, that is only one example. There are so many more, but I'll leave it alone.
Pxtl, seriously dude, even if you don't like larger ranges, try bota, it's a hell of a lot of fun, and as you previously stated, you have your views, I have mine, I am perfectly fine with that.
Oh, I agree there. TA modders need to go through all their units and audit their attributes, unit-by-unit. The problem is that TA mods are being handled like any project that's changed hands too many times - 99% of the code is not understood by the people working on the project. Caydr may have had some crazy ideas, but he tried to know every aspect of every unit. The newer people haven't had the time to gain that knowledge.
I was just saying that I liked the short firing ranges, that's all.
I was just saying that I liked the short firing ranges, that's all.
you can argue about gun ranges being short due to monitor size, but what about view range? if we wanted realism, any unit would be able to see everything across a huge battlefield. go in to first person view - you can see across the whole map, but units only pop up when they are ten feet in front of you.
i'd argue that view range and firing range are short due to the intrinsic nature of rts games.
i'd argue that view range and firing range are short due to the intrinsic nature of rts games.
nope.
view range is also small because it is linked to weapon range. The view range should exceed the weapon range by at least 2X in my opinion. However, some things are not going to see very far... like for example a factory. The units inside are not focused on outside as they are busy inside. So then we look at units, well the guy can only observe so much so he should have a view more like a cone unless he has sight sensors and then he could see around himself. However, the player cannot see what he does because the screen is in a headlock.. so the ranges and sight are shorter then they should be.
This sort of representative figure is reminiscent of table top games where your piece can sometimes be MANY times it's real size or number in relation to it's range. So we are left with these units that can shoot 10 feet in front of themselves because tables are small and we need to see the entire battle on the table. So the pieces have to be out of scale.
However, that is old, now with more powerful machines that can handle rendering a much larger battlefield longer ranges and sight are possible.
Honestly, if I had it my way many units would be able to see all the way across the map. The only exceptions being factories etc. however, if this was done in spring the game would lag thanks to the way spring handles the sight stuff. (Or at least everyone tells me large sight lags their machines... I think they are just running weal hardware)
view range is also small because it is linked to weapon range. The view range should exceed the weapon range by at least 2X in my opinion. However, some things are not going to see very far... like for example a factory. The units inside are not focused on outside as they are busy inside. So then we look at units, well the guy can only observe so much so he should have a view more like a cone unless he has sight sensors and then he could see around himself. However, the player cannot see what he does because the screen is in a headlock.. so the ranges and sight are shorter then they should be.
This sort of representative figure is reminiscent of table top games where your piece can sometimes be MANY times it's real size or number in relation to it's range. So we are left with these units that can shoot 10 feet in front of themselves because tables are small and we need to see the entire battle on the table. So the pieces have to be out of scale.
However, that is old, now with more powerful machines that can handle rendering a much larger battlefield longer ranges and sight are possible.
Honestly, if I had it my way many units would be able to see all the way across the map. The only exceptions being factories etc. however, if this was done in spring the game would lag thanks to the way spring handles the sight stuff. (Or at least everyone tells me large sight lags their machines... I think they are just running weal hardware)
Just a small point though, if units could see all teh way over the map, theres one thing missing. Much like in father ted when a cow is far away it looks small. In spring if somthings far away from your unit it looks exactly teh same size as a unit thats next to your unit (assuming the camera is equaly far from both...)
And thats were being bale to se teh whole map falls down cause in real life, yes you can see that building over there, but can you actully tell that teh windows havn't been cleaned.
You can see that man over the field, but Is that a shotgun or a stick?
Hence, thats why sight ranges are small. There what can be seen reasonably well.
Not that thats perfect by any means, but its still better than just being able to see into your enamy base from 5 miles away, when all you would probably be able to see normaly is a smudgy blob.
(thinking about it though, wouldn't it be cool if you could see "things" outside your sight range, just tehy were all smudgy and blured, moreso the thurther away they were... *this ida is compleatly not possible on current hardwear though me thinks...*)
aGorm
And thats were being bale to se teh whole map falls down cause in real life, yes you can see that building over there, but can you actully tell that teh windows havn't been cleaned.
You can see that man over the field, but Is that a shotgun or a stick?
Hence, thats why sight ranges are small. There what can be seen reasonably well.
Not that thats perfect by any means, but its still better than just being able to see into your enamy base from 5 miles away, when all you would probably be able to see normaly is a smudgy blob.
(thinking about it though, wouldn't it be cool if you could see "things" outside your sight range, just tehy were all smudgy and blured, moreso the thurther away they were... *this ida is compleatly not possible on current hardwear though me thinks...*)
aGorm