Starcrafts cloaking (dosn't uncloak when shooting) is far superior to TA/CnC cloaking (uncloaks). If the cloaker has to uncloak to fire, it's pretty pointless and dosn't really matter when actually fighting other units. In starcraft you can actually use those units to win a fight by taking away his ability to detect. Thus using and countering cloaking units isn't just a gimmick but an actual interesting dimension of gameplay.
It's funny how people (springs best modders at that) have taken a hate-shot on first, the "grand theorist" and then the shadowy "uber-clicker". Theory and practice are not mutually exclusive, both should be taken into account seriously for best effect. Neither should be ignored when balancing a mod, or playing a game or whatever, both are important and it's silly to put one above the other. Any decent theoryst should know that theory dos not perfectly say what will happen. Instead, well done theory will approximate well the important details with simpler math, no matter how complicated the underlying reality is, and such is useful.
Starcraft has a rigid and simple rule system that leads to structured gameplay, so you can discuss situations like the marine vs lurker. The more "simulation" (or so claimed) approach of TA/supcom with more physics etc leads to "messier" gameplay where you cannot really say much about what will happen. This also makes it harder to balance the game in such a way that interesting situations can arise (IE the different levels of tactics in the lurker vs marine fight). However, a more realistic engine of course has it's merits and you will want to try to push this while maintaining interesting gameplay (or we would be stuck with chekers).
Graphics and gameplay.
Moderator: Moderators
But I love TA and SupCom's Simulation style gameplay. It's great becuase, in Starcraft if a marine shoots, it's gonna hit. But in TA, if a tank fires, it's gonna hit...because it fired at the right moment for the shot to arc over the battlefeild and smack into the enemy unit. And, of course, there's the chance it will miss.
I, like Smoth, have played a lot of Starcraft. The things I liked about it was it's style and the Terrans. Because the Terrans kick ass. The things I didn't like about it was...it's like playing in a box. In TA, if I wanted too, I could build...fifty bombers. Ever build fifty bombers in Starcraft?
In SupCom I could build five hundred bombers. That's cause SupCom is like TA, but bigger. And Spring is like TA, but...wider and more open. It's easily one of the most diverse game engine I've seen. Gundam, EE, BA, AA and Nanoblobz. Each of these play almost completely different from the other. Gundam has it's neato "machine shop" econ, EE has it's insane fast expand or die thing, Nanoblobz (And, by extention, Marble Madness) have the spam spam spam spam spam thing going on...and I haven't played enough of BA and AA to tell the difference between them, but I'm sure they're difference.
And that is why I like Spring more then Starcraft. The only thing I need form Starcraft is Multiple responces, so we can have joke responces, and those little faces in the UI. I love those little faces...they're just cool. Anyone else think they're cool?
I think they're cool...
I, like Smoth, have played a lot of Starcraft. The things I liked about it was it's style and the Terrans. Because the Terrans kick ass. The things I didn't like about it was...it's like playing in a box. In TA, if I wanted too, I could build...fifty bombers. Ever build fifty bombers in Starcraft?
In SupCom I could build five hundred bombers. That's cause SupCom is like TA, but bigger. And Spring is like TA, but...wider and more open. It's easily one of the most diverse game engine I've seen. Gundam, EE, BA, AA and Nanoblobz. Each of these play almost completely different from the other. Gundam has it's neato "machine shop" econ, EE has it's insane fast expand or die thing, Nanoblobz (And, by extention, Marble Madness) have the spam spam spam spam spam thing going on...and I haven't played enough of BA and AA to tell the difference between them, but I'm sure they're difference.
And that is why I like Spring more then Starcraft. The only thing I need form Starcraft is Multiple responces, so we can have joke responces, and those little faces in the UI. I love those little faces...they're just cool. Anyone else think they're cool?
I think they're cool...
zpock, once a unit is shooting at you or destroying your dudes you know where it is that is why TA unit decloak. They can go off and cloak again but onces something is punching you in the face the guy next to you knows where it is and it has lost all stealth. Watch predator movies.
So, no that is forcing a gameplay mechanic on people. You HAVE to do the counter crap for things just like you have to constantly scan for that damn ghost unit.
Lurkers get fucked because terrens can detect them with a flying unit and so can the protoss oh and that detector is cloaked.
I don't want to play cloak wars.
now, that being said what you are failing to understand is that I am not saying starcraft is deep or even hard. I am saying that it is overly simplified to the point that there is little variety in gameplay. I got tired of seeing the same shit over and over. That is part of the problem. I spend more time just trying to hurry up and build all my counter units that I lose all interest.
See there is a reason that there are many similar and not similar units in gundam. That reason is that the unit's purpose and design vary in a ways that mean some or more suited for different things.
For example:
RGM with machine gun
Assault in numbers when fighting low air
Rx79plus machine gun and rockets
Assault an guarding against air
rx79rl uses rockets only
when your on a map where there is a lot of air units
Powerd gm with machine gun
fast rusher unit used to get passed defenses and take out a target deep in enemy lines(although it is usually a suicide mission)
these are just 4 units of over 40 units for just one faction. I am not even getting into sea or air. However air is starcraft was always balance my scourge/guardian/mutalisk ratio with a lurking set of defilers to plague those fag protoss. I understand starcraft gameplay just fine. However, that tank that shoots 40 feet at best and the way the units and game is setup result in small squad battles or large clusters but it is all tactical level crap and not very interesting because I HAVE to use X unit for X role and it gets dull very fast.
So, no that is forcing a gameplay mechanic on people. You HAVE to do the counter crap for things just like you have to constantly scan for that damn ghost unit.
Lurkers get fucked because terrens can detect them with a flying unit and so can the protoss oh and that detector is cloaked.
I don't want to play cloak wars.
now, that being said what you are failing to understand is that I am not saying starcraft is deep or even hard. I am saying that it is overly simplified to the point that there is little variety in gameplay. I got tired of seeing the same shit over and over. That is part of the problem. I spend more time just trying to hurry up and build all my counter units that I lose all interest.
See there is a reason that there are many similar and not similar units in gundam. That reason is that the unit's purpose and design vary in a ways that mean some or more suited for different things.
For example:
RGM with machine gun
Assault in numbers when fighting low air
Rx79plus machine gun and rockets
Assault an guarding against air
rx79rl uses rockets only
when your on a map where there is a lot of air units
Powerd gm with machine gun
fast rusher unit used to get passed defenses and take out a target deep in enemy lines(although it is usually a suicide mission)
these are just 4 units of over 40 units for just one faction. I am not even getting into sea or air. However air is starcraft was always balance my scourge/guardian/mutalisk ratio with a lurking set of defilers to plague those fag protoss. I understand starcraft gameplay just fine. However, that tank that shoots 40 feet at best and the way the units and game is setup result in small squad battles or large clusters but it is all tactical level crap and not very interesting because I HAVE to use X unit for X role and it gets dull very fast.
So the 1st argument is that cloaks are unrealistic in starcraft? Realism arguments are phail. Games are abstractions, they don't have to follow reality more then necessary. And who is to say you can tell where a cloaked unit is when it's shooting at you in real life before you are dead? What if the muzzle flare is cloaked too etc? It's like statistics you can prove anything you want with realism.smoth wrote:zpock, once a unit is shooting at you or destroying your dudes you know where it is that is why TA unit decloak. They can go off and cloak again but onces something is punching you in the face the guy next to you knows where it is and it has lost all stealth. Watch predator movies.
So, no that is forcing a gameplay mechanic on people. You HAVE to do the counter crap for things just like you have to constantly scan for that damn ghost unit.
Forcing game mechanics on people, a bad thing? You prefer cloaking to be something that you can pretty much ignore (like in games where stuff uncloaks to shoot)? I think the other way around, that game mechanics are good if people are forced to take them into account.
I guess it's a matter of opinion in the end tough, if your gut feeling is that you don't like invisible units killing stuff then so be it.
Lack of variety in starcraft? Sure there are very few units, but there are a lot of possible interesting situations that do happen in practical starcraft games, at least if it goes past the initial rush phase. The rush phase also has a lot of variety in different build orders and such so it's not shallow either. You may think build orders are stupid or something however so maybe that's not appreciated, each to his own. Variety in Tactical stuff like how you micro the rush units are also abundant, there's a lot of tricks and things but I see this usually just get's hated on since it's tactics and the fast clickers win etc...smoth wrote:now, that being said what you are failing to understand is that I am not saying starcraft is deep or even hard. I am saying that it is overly simplified to the point that there is little variety in gameplay. I got tired of seeing the same shit over and over. That is part of the problem. I spend more time just trying to hurry up and build all my counter units that I lose all interest.
...
However air is starcraft was always balance my scourge/guardian/mutalisk ratio with a lurking set of defilers to plague those fag protoss. I understand starcraft gameplay just fine. However, that tank that shoots 40 feet at best and the way the units and game is setup result in small squad battles or large clusters but it is all tactical level crap and not very interesting because I HAVE to use X unit for X role and it gets dull very fast.
There are certainly varying levels of hard and soft counters in starcraft, and situation dependant counters, not just unit X beats unit Y. Soft counter being were something beats something else but with heavy losses, like firebats vs zealots. Hard counter when you take few or no losses, like air units vs units that have no anti air. Situation dependant things like a zergling beating a siege tank if its dropped right on top of it etc. The units are generally not stuck in some single role, most of them can be used in different roles and situations. Part of having few units is that they are not so specialised into single roles. Some examples: the goliath being a good anti air units but it's also decent vs ground units. The marine is useful for many things like sitting in bunkers, shooting air units decently, general fighting, making use of choke points early on to beat melee... Overlords detect cloaks, transport, and are food, used as scouts esp in the beginning.
yes the cloaks are unrealistic in starcraft.. they force you to REQUIRE a detection unit in order to counter them.. even though you CAN SEE THE MUZZLE FLASH FROM THE WEAPON IN GAME.. You cannot order your troops to shoot there and hope they can hit it.. nope you cant guesstimate where it is and try to fight back, YOU NEED A DETECTOR, without one a single cloaked unit will kill your entire force and THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.. this sort of linear rock paper scissors stuff is stupid and frankly not enjoyable..
Well actually, if you have templars your can psionic storm cloaked units, or use zerg stuff like defilers plague or the queens slowing slime to make them visible. And if you could just order any unit to shoot at where the cloakers are then there would be no point to use cloaking, and seen from a gameplay > realism perspective, that would be stupid.Fanger wrote:yes the cloaks are unrealistic in starcraft.. they force you to REQUIRE a detection unit in order to counter them.. even though you CAN SEE THE MUZZLE FLASH FROM THE WEAPON IN GAME.. You cannot order your troops to shoot there and hope they can hit it.. nope you cant guesstimate where it is and try to fight back, YOU NEED A DETECTOR, without one a single cloaked unit will kill your entire force and THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.. this sort of linear rock paper scissors stuff is stupid and frankly not enjoyable..
in before starcraft being paraded as the holy bible of all balance...
wait..
O SHI....
OR
What began as discussion over gameplay and balance has escalated into a flamewar that has decimated a million forums. Starcraft and TA have all but exhausted the resources of the internet in their struggle for domination, both sides crippled beyond repair the scattered remnants of their fans continue to battle, on ravaged forums their hatred fueled by over 10 years of arguments. This is a fight to the death, for each side the only acceptable outcome is the complete and total elimination of the others opinion.
Cue fighting..
wait..
O SHI....
OR
What began as discussion over gameplay and balance has escalated into a flamewar that has decimated a million forums. Starcraft and TA have all but exhausted the resources of the internet in their struggle for domination, both sides crippled beyond repair the scattered remnants of their fans continue to battle, on ravaged forums their hatred fueled by over 10 years of arguments. This is a fight to the death, for each side the only acceptable outcome is the complete and total elimination of the others opinion.
Cue fighting..
Well, the arguement will always go like:
user: starcraft fails because of X,Y,Z
Fanboi: nuh uh
tard: flames user
fanboi: see I got backup
user: I played it... the game fails on xyz
fanboi: well you can counter a level 1 rush unit with the highest unit in the game...
another user: that is stupid, that really is limiting
somerandomdouche: I am going to argue with user because I troll him
anotheruserb: it is stabing me and i have a machine gun.. I am shooting the air..
anotheruser: wow, this gets as far as every other discussion of starcraft.
Mods would you be so kind as to delete lolsquad's steven obvious trolling and lock this thread. It is not longer going to get anywhere.
user: starcraft fails because of X,Y,Z
Fanboi: nuh uh
tard: flames user
fanboi: see I got backup
user: I played it... the game fails on xyz
fanboi: well you can counter a level 1 rush unit with the highest unit in the game...
another user: that is stupid, that really is limiting
somerandomdouche: I am going to argue with user because I troll him
anotheruserb: it is stabing me and i have a machine gun.. I am shooting the air..
anotheruser: wow, this gets as far as every other discussion of starcraft.
Mods would you be so kind as to delete lolsquad's steven obvious trolling and lock this thread. It is not longer going to get anywhere.
-
Lolsquad_Steven
- Posts: 488
- Joined: 27 Jun 2006, 17:55
Sometimes like this
Modder: Hey guys have you ever played my mod, here's the link, it's really good, it looks pretty and it's kinda realistic.
Guy: I didn't like your mod, let me explain why...
Modder: WHAT! you can't say my mod is bad, i've put 3 years into this mod, you havn't even played it properly.
Modder: Starcraft is bad, it was made by blizzard and has had more work put into it by more people than my own work, i don't like it because i didn't find it fun but i'll tell you about some small things in starcraft that arn't realistic therefore bad.
Starcraft fanboi: What!, you can't do that, he can't do this
Starcraft fanboi: Here are some tips since you obviously don't understand how to scout and counter strategies properly.
Modder: What, fuck you! I played it alot i swear, i just think the dark templar are kinda hard to counter.
Modder: I'm not saying starcraft is hard or deep or anything though, WTF STUPID TROLLER DELETE HIS Posts.
Modder: Let me explain why my mod should be fun.
Modder: Hey guys have you ever played my mod, here's the link, it's really good, it looks pretty and it's kinda realistic.
Guy: I didn't like your mod, let me explain why...
Modder: WHAT! you can't say my mod is bad, i've put 3 years into this mod, you havn't even played it properly.
Modder: Starcraft is bad, it was made by blizzard and has had more work put into it by more people than my own work, i don't like it because i didn't find it fun but i'll tell you about some small things in starcraft that arn't realistic therefore bad.
Starcraft fanboi: What!, you can't do that, he can't do this
Starcraft fanboi: Here are some tips since you obviously don't understand how to scout and counter strategies properly.
Modder: What, fuck you! I played it alot i swear, i just think the dark templar are kinda hard to counter.
Modder: I'm not saying starcraft is hard or deep or anything though, WTF STUPID TROLLER DELETE HIS Posts.
Modder: Let me explain why my mod should be fun.
Now that would be a fun mod.Fanger wrote:
What began as discussion over gameplay and balance has escalated into a flamewar that has decimated a million forums. Starcraft and TA have all but exhausted the resources of the internet in their struggle for domination, both sides crippled beyond repair the scattered remnants of their fans continue to battle, on ravaged forums their hatred fueled by over 10 years of arguments. This is a fight to the death, for each side the only acceptable outcome is the complete and total elimination of the others opinion.
fanger made me lol, i think hell might be freezing overFanger wrote: What began as discussion over gameplay and balance has escalated into a flamewar that has decimated a million forums. Starcraft and TA have all but exhausted the resources of the internet in their struggle for domination, both sides crippled beyond repair the scattered remnants of their fans continue to battle, on ravaged forums their hatred fueled by over 10 years of arguments. This is a fight to the death, for each side the only acceptable outcome is the complete and total elimination of the others opinion.
Please, lads, make a thread to discuss Starcraft. For a game with so few flame based weapons, it seems to generate a smoke which can obscure any sort of conversation with ease. Much like Fang on fire.
Steven, Smoth, really now. Neither of you are being fair or completely truthful. Take this elsewhere.
I'll be perfectly honest with you all, Starcraft killed RTS for me. I played it, I learned the units, I learned each way they could be used together, and I worked up my APM - this was before I had carpal tunnel. It quickly became a game of the RTA - Real Time Attrition - genre. The lapses in logic were not as much an issue (I recognize that logic as a construct has practical limits), as the sheer simplicity of play - it became a game of numbers and unnecessary micromanagement. After seven or eight months of play, I burnt out - it was no longer fun, but it was verging on obsession.
Starcraft was not a bad game. It simply wasn't a lasting RTS. The single player play was much more fulfilling than the online could ever be - where strategy fell by the wayside, the story and atmosphere filled in. It was an exercise in developmental reductionism - and while this made approximate balance easy to attain, it crippled the end product, leaving it distinctly lacking in complexity. Yes, units had clearly defined roles, but they were inflexible ones - and there wasn't enough interunit variety to make up for that. For me it was no longer an intellectual exercise, and there was no way to play another RTS given the shift in players to Starcraft.
Spring drew me back into the genre due to... well, the potential for intellectual engagement - game developers can construct their own content on the engine, and anything is possible. And now we have the tools to implement a story and synthesize atmosphere - Starcraft is only a necessary footnote in what has brought us to this point. It showed us the power of asthetics in the genre, and it gave us a baseline for reductionist balancing.
Steven, Smoth, really now. Neither of you are being fair or completely truthful. Take this elsewhere.
I'll be perfectly honest with you all, Starcraft killed RTS for me. I played it, I learned the units, I learned each way they could be used together, and I worked up my APM - this was before I had carpal tunnel. It quickly became a game of the RTA - Real Time Attrition - genre. The lapses in logic were not as much an issue (I recognize that logic as a construct has practical limits), as the sheer simplicity of play - it became a game of numbers and unnecessary micromanagement. After seven or eight months of play, I burnt out - it was no longer fun, but it was verging on obsession.
Starcraft was not a bad game. It simply wasn't a lasting RTS. The single player play was much more fulfilling than the online could ever be - where strategy fell by the wayside, the story and atmosphere filled in. It was an exercise in developmental reductionism - and while this made approximate balance easy to attain, it crippled the end product, leaving it distinctly lacking in complexity. Yes, units had clearly defined roles, but they were inflexible ones - and there wasn't enough interunit variety to make up for that. For me it was no longer an intellectual exercise, and there was no way to play another RTS given the shift in players to Starcraft.
Spring drew me back into the genre due to... well, the potential for intellectual engagement - game developers can construct their own content on the engine, and anything is possible. And now we have the tools to implement a story and synthesize atmosphere - Starcraft is only a necessary footnote in what has brought us to this point. It showed us the power of asthetics in the genre, and it gave us a baseline for reductionist balancing.
look steven I don't know what bug crawled up your ass. Stop fucking with me. This thread was going along well untill you started trolling it.
I am tired of explaining it but just incase you are not a troll and are some how misguided. The relevance of the time... wait I have said this already, I am tired of repeating myself. I did not say fuck you or any sentement like that. I am sorry you cannot handle a negative opinion on a game that you are an obvious fan of. Also, the counter unit TACTICS that you are talking about are not strats they are tactics.
So, what is your damn problem. Say it here and get it out if you are man enough.
No neddie, I am tired of steven having a vendetta. I wanna hear his reason.
I am tired of explaining it but just incase you are not a troll and are some how misguided. The relevance of the time... wait I have said this already, I am tired of repeating myself. I did not say fuck you or any sentement like that. I am sorry you cannot handle a negative opinion on a game that you are an obvious fan of. Also, the counter unit TACTICS that you are talking about are not strats they are tactics.
So, what is your damn problem. Say it here and get it out if you are man enough.
No neddie, I am tired of steven having a vendetta. I wanna hear his reason.